95 2.2 auto wont start, please help

I call for the camry gurus to show me the light. Im in desperate need of help here so anything you can think of would be great.

The car:   95 camry 4dr, 2.2l auto, with 165,000 miles. turns over smoothley. ran like a top pre problem, never burned oil or lack of power or any other sign of an emerging issue. Only existing issue is some motor mounts are allowing the engine to slap a little on acceleration.

Went to take off at a normal pace from a stop sign and it just died.  now it cranks and cranks but wont start. 

So far Ive checked: 
It has spark on all cylinders but im not sure if it is strong enough or at the right time but it sparks consistantly so that should be enough for it to at least try to fire up.
It doesnt post any codes from the at home retreval method. system says "no problems"
EFI relay and fuse are fine
fuel pump works when I do the diagnostic port operation check and im getting flow past the filter.
Timing belt is intact and in time with the cams and distributer. (well Im pretty sure at least, not ruling anything out)
I sprayed some starter fluid into the TB several different times and it didnt even want to pop or fire.
Weird thing is starter fluid doesnt do anything but when I crank it over and over, I cant smell a build up of fuel.  Or at least I dont think I do.
So I have spark, it appears to be in time, and I cant smell fuel when it cranks but have it when I spray starter fluid into the intake and still it doesnt even try to pop or start or anything. 

Ok  what do you guys got. save me please.
Thanks in advance.
-Brendan Dean

Well you did a lot of diagnostic work. I wish everyone would attempt half of what you did.
Do you have compression? That would be my next move. 

yes. compression is the next step.  that along with fuel rail pressure, a stethascope on the injectors and checking the coil for propper resistance. I would have got these done yesterday but I ran out fo day light and the car is parked 30 miles away. I just talked to the local toyota dealership mechanic and he confidently said check the coil. he said it might spark out side of the cylinder, but inside the cylinder, the coil isnt strong enough. He also said this problem was kinda common. despite my attempts not to, im kinda getting my hopes up.

For sure that under compression a weak spark will not work. If you got a good blue spark on your spark test then I would say coil OK, but a simple OHM test should prove out the coil. If you need test specs let me know. But starting fluid is pretty easy to ignite so even weak spark would do it. If you have compression I would check coil then fuel pressure.

Well from what I remember the spark looked pretty weak but I just thought, eh, its a camry. probably doesnt need alot of spark.  I plan to check the resistance of the coil today. I have some specs for it but if you could give me yours I can cross refrence to make sure mine are correct. Yes starter fluid should ignite easily but if the injectors were working properly, than this created an increadibly rich environment, which is even harder to ignite. Ill keep ya posted since this information is useful to the camry community i fugure.

FSM Coil Inspection: (Not California)
 
Primary Resistance - Cold - .36 - .55 ohm   Hot - .45 - .65 ohm
 (Between +/- Terminals)  (Positive is on your left facing coil) 
 
Secondary - Cold - 9.0 - 15.4 ohm   Hot - 11.4 - 18.1 ohm
(Between + and High Tension Terminals) (Positive on Left - HT on Bottom where windings are)
 
While you're in there you might as well test the pick-up coil resistance.
 
] - Ne +                Cold - G+G- 185 - 275 ohm
] - Ne -                            Ne+Ne- 370 550 ohm 
] - G -                   Hot - G+G- 240 - 325 ohm
] - G +                            Ne+Ne- 475 - 650 ohm
 
There is a condensor as well. If it's bad you won't get ignition. But I suspect that if you're getting some spark it's OK. Good Luck. 
 

I've replaced a million of these coils. There a little expensive but, at least your car will be running

so updates for ya... checked the car with a timing light.  confirms that I have ignition when I need to and strong enough to ignite the cylinder. I also checked the coil. came out to .5 for primary and 12.5K for the secondary. so no problems there unfortunatley. I also used a stethascope on the injectors and it sounds like they are fireing.    really weird thing is it really tried to start today. it firedand ignited several times and wouldnt give up. so very confused, my brain hurts.  just look at the time of this post, obviousley keeping me up at night. hahaha, well its not really that funny. 

Did you rely on the firing of the timing light as confirmation of enough voltage to ignite fuel? If it is inductive then I don't think it needs much of a signal to fire a good light. But coil seems to check out.
 
Injectors clicking does not mean fuel. Those stethascopes are pretty sensitive and can be deceptive as they will pick-up clicks all the way down the fuel rail.  But at least you are getting at least some injector activity. I would check fuel pressure.
 
I guess you did not check compression?? If we assume you have 1.Spark 2.Timing 3.Fuel, then only two things left for all ingredients needed are compression and air. You have confirmed timing belt OK so only other reason for no compression (all cyl'ds) would be valves not opening (doubtful) or blocked exhaust or intake, both long shots. Vacuum gauge? Other possibility might be massive vacuum leak. Did it die at idle or at speed?   
 

Pedro:  well I was assuming that if the timing light went off it indicated that I have a good spark. Do you think the spark could still be not strong enough to ignite a mixture? can I get a tool that can test for the spark plug voltage? what should this voltage be do ya think? what else could cause a weak spark?  like I mentioned before, the coil seams to be alright, so whatelse would cause a spark to go weak and not die out.  Im still not sure fuel or spark but am focusing on spark for the moment since the starter fluid didnt indicate that it is a fuel problem. 

can a coolant temp sensor or MAP sensor failing on this car cause it to not inject fuel, or inject way too much?

thanks for your help

oh yeah, and it died at idel right after strying to leave the stop sign. 

The timing light has it's own battery power. As long as there is enough inductive voltage on a plug wire you will get a good light. It will not tell you there is enough voltage to produce a good spark. The FSM does not give a coil voltage spec. You should get 30,000 volts + to the plug. Resistance in the circuit lowers that voltage, bad wire, bad cap, plug etc. The FSM only gives procedure to check spark or no spark, not weak spark. I have an inductive digital tester that I can lay across a plug wire which will tell me the kv's going down that wire. I mostly bought it to test my distributorless ignition on my truck, but it's a handy quick tester for any system. I can test my own car tonight as I just installed all new cap, plugs, wires and let you know how many volts mine produces. You don't need a tester though. Just remove the spark plugs then hook up one plug to one plug wire, ground that plug and have someone turn the engine over, if you see a good blue spark, you're good to go. Don't turn it over too long. You can do this for each plug/wire. If you are getting good spark at the correct timing then it's probably fuel. I thought you said you tested for fuel?
 
I think you need to first bring this spark/no spark issue to rest. It's the easiest to test and will give you a direction to go afterward.

Yeah, your right.  but its been kinda hard to pin anything down on this thing.  that would be great if you could give me a figure for your properly working ignition.  Its just kinda hard to look somethig up or get some info off of the net and then go test it as the car is parked 35 miles away.  But this weekend I will for sure determin... timing belt, cam and disty allignment again,  I will pull the plugs to make sure I have fuel in the cylinder as the rest of the fuel system works fine, voltage to the injectors pending the last test and then take a good look at the spark.  I did this test earlier but only to determin that I have spark, now I just need to for sure find out that it is strong enough. why do you suggest not cranking the engine for long other than the obvious reason of the battery dieing. actually this batt has been cranking this car over for so long without dieing that Im starting to wonder if there is no compression.  need a new fitting to do that test too.  any other suggestions as I will be working on the car again saturday.

quote:

ORIGINAL: deanp
why do you suggest not cranking the engine for long other than the obvious reason of the battery dieing.

You'll just flood it. You don't need many cranks to see a good spark. I actually tested my own Camry with my Kv tester. Voltage came in at 12.5Kv to 15.5Kv on the plug wires. Not as high as I'd expected but then I did some thinking and research and figured the voltage is not even throughout the spark cycle.  The voltage should build to that needed to jump the plug gap then fall as it needs less voltage once started. I think with a scope you would see the spike and fall off over the spark duration. But everything happens so fast you'd need a scope that captured the spark cycle then be able to display it. My tester is probably capturing the average between high and low as it takes a few seconds to give one single reading. All references on the web use the 30Kv + figure as an accepted value without qualifying the number. From the coil I don't know what's lost in the rotor, cap. My Ford Ranger with distributorless ignition came in with values a little higher  - 18.5Kv to 20.5Kv. That may reflect the losses through the rotor/cap. 

quote:

actually this batt has been cranking this car over for so long without dieing that Im starting to wonder if there is no compression.

If your timing belt is OK and everything turning I don't know why no compression at this point. But knowing it's there would be good.

quote:

any other suggestions as I will be working on the car again saturday.

Maybe toyoboy can give some insight. 

If your car is equipped with a crank and cam sensor then what it could be is the cam sensor which the engine uses to determine when to send the injector pulse signals. if that sensor went bad which is real comon on camrys then the fuel pressure will be there but the fuel injectors wont be opening to allow fuel into the head. however you said you tried spraying starter fluid and had no change so I would doubt that.

 I would also doubt the compression becuase if it went from running fine one sec. to not running the next then its most likely something electrical like a sensor or a bad coil. I had to replace the coil on my 93 at about 170k miles.

turboxb9s, 95 4 cyl'dr does not have crank or cam position sensor. But you bring up a good point about the injectors not firing. As you say though even starting fluid didn't produce a burp which led me to spark as well.
 
deanp, have you given it gas pedal when trying to start it? Using a stethescope to hear the clicking of the injectors will also prove out injector operation. If no stethescope then I'm not sure if using your fingers would give operation feedback. Maybe a lenth of vacuum tubing held to the ear would also work.

I didnt figure cam or crank sensor because on my last ford, it canceled spark if it failed, and since I had spark I figured it was fine.  I also saw that the haynes manual said cam and crank sensor dont apply for the I4 like you said pedro. So how does this car make up for not having either of these sensors?

I originally doubted compression too but im running out of ideas so Im not rueling anything out.  thats why Im taking off the timing cover AGAIN.  not that hard but not fun either.

Turboxb   what indication did you get that you had to change your coil.  Mine checked out fine with the resistance test.

I have given it the gas pedal when trying to start it. I have also listened to the injectors and heard clicking with the stethiscope, so Im pretty sure they are being told to open, but to make sure, Im gonna check electricity going to them and pull the plugs to determin once and for all if I have fuel getting into the cylinder.

quote:

ORIGINAL: deanp
So how does this car make up for not having either of these sensors?

The old fashion way - with mechanical timing and a distributor.

quote:

Mine checked out fine with the resistance test.

Being hot might make it go bad. From my previous post there were higher resistance values when hot.

I believe my coil didn't have the resistance it should have had but what led me to testing it was that I did a spark test by unplugging a wire and connecting it to a spark testing tool and saw that I had none.

pedro. if the camry doesn't have either cam or crank sensors then how does the computer determine when to pulse the injectors. I'm guessing the 95 has a distributor so it wouldn't need it for the spark. What I'm thinking is that there is a sensor in the distributor that does this. If the distributor runs off the camshaft then that would be called the cam sensor by all of the guys I work with.

turboxb9s, the 5S-FE non-California has two signal rotors inside the distributor. One has four lobes the other has one lobe. So I would guess that the one lobe rotor is for TDC while the four lobe is for firing of each cylinder through the ECM and ignitor. Someone with indepth knowledge of this could clarify. There is no separate cam/crank positon sensor as is the case on the distributorless V6 engines. The California version 4 cyl'd has a multi-lobe signal rotor without separate cam/crank position sensors. So I guess you could say that the one lobe signal rotor is the camshaft position sensor for TDC, it's just not commonly referred to as such. The only function test for this is the ohm test on the pick-up coil in my earlier post. Now how specifically the ECM uses the signals from the distributor to fire the injectors I'll leave to someone else as there are other sensors in play.   

I understand what your saying but mechanically speaking that sensor is detecting the position of the distributor AND the camshaft position at the same time because their in synch with eachother. There must be a way to test that sensor within the distributor. I doubt its available seperately but for diag reasons there has to be a test for it.

There is a way to test it, by testing the continuity of the pickup coil that is part of the sensor. The pickup coil test I outlined in the previous post tests that sensor. The sensor is just a magnet passing a coil, so if the coil is intact the sensor should be good.

well I cleaned up the disty and the plugs and am getting a thin but blue spark consistantly. last time I checked, it was fireing at the right time (about 12* BTDC) so, im hoping this rules out spark.  when I pulled the spark plugs, I could smell fuel when cranking and could smell it on the plugs. plus the plugs were fouled so I know they are at least seeing some fuel.  I dont think starter fluid would foul a plug. I did try sanding and cleaning up the plugs and reinstalling them. that didnt get the engine to start, but when I crank it now, it wants to start a little more(pops and sputters). and every once and a while, I can get a bigger cough if I use a quick burst of starter fluid.   Someone at napa suggested just taking off the ignition controle moduel (ICM) and bringing it in since they can test it for free if they have the right clip as it could be producing a weaker spark.  well I brought in the ignitor, since thats all that I could find that resembeled an ICM on this engine (am I just missing it???) and they couldnt test it but could this be my problem.  I have a spark that is blue and on time so could the ignitor still be a problem.  any ideas for testing it?   Well what do you guys think??? could a bad fuel pressure regulator be causing the fuel rail to loose pressure when cranking and just drip the injectors instead of spraying them, causing me to smell fuel but keep it from atomising? 

From what I've been able to understand in the FSM the ignitor is used to control spark and spark timing and is controlled by the ECM. The ignitor seems to be used to turn the primary voltage of the coil on/off  to generate secondary high voltage to the plugs. The only test I could find is a voltage check from the ECM to the ignitor. Haynes does not even discuss it except to tell you how to replace it. If the ignitor was not working I don't think you'd get any spark as there would be no way to control primary on/off in the coil. It also appears that to test the ignitor you need to replace it with a new one. The ECM (ICM) does not regulate how much spark, it just outputs signals to the ignitor which controls the coil which gives you the right amount of spark voltage. If the ECM is giving output signals, as it appears it is, I think it is OK. I think for now you need to assume you are getting enough spark to ignite fuel. A fuel pressure check now would be useful.  
  

I plan to do a fuel pressure check if I can get the propper tools.    I have a fuel pressure gauge and Im going to get a fitting that will fit onto the outlet side of the fuel filter so that I can check output from the pump. I know when pumps fail, they usually go out totally but like I said before, Im checking everything.  I also need the propper fitting so I can check the pressure on the rail.  What kind of fitting do I need for this and where on the rail should I tap into?

I also found a place that will let me buy an ignitor and return it if it doesnt work. so that is soon to come too.