95 2.2 auto wont start, please help - Page 2

I guess you already know if the pump is operating, just maybe not putting out enough pressure? If not I would first check pump. Connect 12v source to pump terminal. + to terminal 4, - to terminal 5. The connector should have 5 terminals 3 on top, 2 on the bottom. The 3 on top # 1,2,3 left to right. #4 is bottom left, #5 is bottom right.
 
For pressure check you need to tap into banjo fitting on fuel filter. You will need a banjo bolt adapter for your fuel gauge. The gauge banjo mounts on top of the fuel line banjo. The procedure to check fuel pressure is a little extensive to post here so PM me and I'll try to email you a scan of the FSM page describing the procedure. Haynes has a little different procedure but it should work. Haynes also desribes how to make your own banjo adapter if you're up to it. The tap into the fuel rail seems to be a special Toyo tool but the FSM only describes the banjo bolt fitting method.
 
It may be simpler to tow it to Toyo for the fuel pressure test.
 
If you have fuel pressure I would just replace the coil. It seems to be the only thing left to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lavalleemike

I've replaced a million of these coils. There a little expensive but, at least your car will be running

 
I agree with this guy...remove the ignition cap and coil cover you mit find a crack on the coil..

ok...updates. I pulled off the ignitor to get napa to test it and they could not so im unsure of its status...
But today I put in new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, fuel filter and it started right up and the idel was smooth.   BUT- the timing was now at about 3-5*  before TDC at idel, shich is weird since it was at about 12* before and I hadnt adjusted the distributer so I have no idea why the timing would change so much.  I turned the disty and got it back to ~12* before but the disty is pretty maxed out in that range of adjustment so I am certain that something screwey is going on with the timing.   AND... the engine dies at the slightest hint of a load.  turned on the AC, it died.  turned the wheel which must have ingaged the PS pump and killed the engine again.   Now im still confused obviously but doing better now that it will at least start. 
  I havnt pushed on the gas at idel yet because the batt has a dead cell and I have to get a new one before i can start it up any more.

So here is where I am at. It idels but will die when you ask anything of it.  spark was blue but kinda thin before I replaced all the parts so it can only be better now. It probably hasnt jumped a tooth on the T belt because it sounds too good at idel and is too touchy to die.  I think that if it had jumped a tooth, it would idel funky but still be drivable. It could be a fuel related problem since I did change the fuel filter and then it got good enough to start, but I did all the replacements at the same time so the same could be true for spark.  The spark is pretty strong so I dont think weak spark is the problem but why the hell did the timing change so much.  what could have changed the spark timing so much?  does the ignitor control spark timing???  well please give me any ideas you have. thanks

When you checked/adjusted timing did you put a jumper wire between TE1 and E1 of the diagnostic connector? As I stated on a previous post there is no test for the ignitor. The ignitor does not determine the amount of spark voltage, it just cycles the coil to get voltage. I think your ignitor is OK. I don't completely understand how the ignitor works but according to the FSM it does contribute to engine timing as well as coil operation. If you want to test maybe you could pull one from a junker and replace. I would try advancing the timing and see if the car responds better. Also I would get it to start and spray carb cleaner down the throttle at the same time you increase throttle and see if you can get the RPMs up. I would not use starter fluid is that stuff is really flammable. Be careful of backfire up throttle body, so don't put your face in front.

throttle position sensor mit be sticking..

I dont think it is the TPS as there was no prior indication of a tps problem before it died, but I definatley will check to see if it is loose. I will be ordering an ignitor just incase, and will return it if it doesnt help since I have that place that will take back opened electronics. I still havnt checked the fuel pressure because im having trouble locating the gauge I was going to borrow and im too broke right now to buy one. but that is at the top of my list. the only thing that is killing me is the timing change. I did remove the disty to check the coil before I put in the new parts and got it ideling so it is, though very unlikely, possible that I reinstalled it a tooth off and then had the readjust it by hand.  can the disty be installed 10* off or will it be more off than that. if that is the case, the timing might not be the running problem at all. 
for testing the timeing, I just hooked up a timing light and had someone try to start it. thats when, to my suprise, that it started up. so no, I did not jump those diagnostic ports. Pedro, did this screw up my timing check??? what will bridging these ports do. sorry if you already explained it and I jsut missed it.  But it was ideling very smooth and at the proper RPM once I adjusted it, it just cant take a load. so since spark is strong enough (i think) indicated by the color of the spark and the timing after adjustment, if must be fuel. and its running too smooth to be the T belt.  sorry, I know im repeating myself now but writing this stuff down kinda helps me think it over. that and I know that im not the most clear writer so if i write the situation in a couple ways, maybe it will be easier to understand.   Well I really apreciate everyones help. please keep the ideas and input coming. its the only help I have in these dark times,

deanp, the distributor runs off the end of the camshaft so there are no teeth, just a slot. You're either on timing or 180 degrees off timing. I think if you don't jump the two diagnostic terminals you will be off by about 10 degress, which sounds about right given the timing you got. Check the underside of the hood for how to time the engine, there should be a factory sticker. If getting the right timing does not give you off idle operation, toyoboy may have something in the TPS. Make sure the vacuum hose to the TPS is not leaking. To test the TPS you'll need a hand vacuum pump, an ohmmeter and feeler gauge. If you pull it off to check if it's sticking make sure you mark it's rotational postion on the throttle body so it will go back in the same position. Can you get a TPS to test from the same guy who's giving you an ignitor?   

Ok, so...updates.  Its running. clean, smooth, as powerful as it should be.  Crazy thing is I havnt done anything.  Since I replaced the cap, rotor, wires, plugs, fuel filter in my last update, all I did was put in a new battery because the old one died from all the cranking.  It started right up and hasnt died since. There is something kind of funky but this could be due to the adjustment in timing that I made in my last update, but at idel as a stop light or whatever, the idel will dip real low and the lights will dim.  but it hasnt died yet.  But it still runs smooth so im not quite sure what this is.  Any ideas? 

well Im not convinced that anything is fixed completley because the symptoms were too severe for the simple parts that I replaced so Im sure within the next week or so, whatever is wrong will fail completley and ill be back to diagnosing. but at least then it will be easier to find.

First adjust the timing to proper specs. I would then remove and clean all the cable connections from the battery, including those attached to the engine/body. If you can find a ground strap or two from the engine to the body I would clean those connections a well. I believe there is one on the DS down by the transmission. Cleaning the alternator connections would be good too.

Once again Pedro, quick to respond and with more helpful suggestions.   Thanks alot and I will update again once Ive adjusted the timing and done the things you have mentioned.  

How long was it from the time you disconnected your old battery till when you connected power to it with the new one when you replaced it? The reason I'm asking is if the ECU was bad or going bad, removing power from it for a while and connecting it back up is known to make it work again (temporarily ofcourse).

Also I would definately test your charging voltage. If its not putting out 13.5v I might suspect your alternator.

I've also ran into bad batteries that instead of the engine cranking over way too slow to start it would actually crank over seemingly fast enough to start but then not enough power would be left for the ignition to fire good enough to start. It would give a symptom of a weak coil when in fact it may have been your battery all along. The problem with it idling low soon after the battery was installed may just be the ECU relearning how to accurately control everything smoothley.

I really hope its not the ecu.  (fingers crossed)   now it runs smooth but after it reaches opp temp, it will drop from about 900 rpm idel (fast I know) down to about 700 which isnt that bad, but when it does it, it sounds and feels like its gonna die and has a noticable miss, but when you give it some gas, it smooths out and the miss seams to disapear.  I went today to adjust the timing by the haynes manual discription and it says to jump terminal E1 and TE1 and then set the timing the the "S" mark on the timing cover. I, for the life of me, couldnt find any mark that resempeled an "S". so I set it to the little, unlabled mark between the 5 and 10 mark and then, like the manual described, pulled off the jumper wire to check the result.  the manual says the timing should advance to 12 to 20* BTDC but instead it went to about 5* so I guess the mark between the 5 and 10 isnt the "S" mark.  so maybe someone can tell me what mark to set it to when Im jumping the TE1 and E1 terminal.     and if I did set it right, and got the result of a totally off timing after removing the jumper wire, what could it be????

deanp, I think that "S" mark is a misprint. It should be "5 degree mark".
After you jump TE1/E1 the idle will rise for about 5 seconds then return to idle range. Timing should be 10 degrees, but FSM says it will move in a range of 0-10 degrees. I think that's why Haynes says 5 degrees, half way. What's happening is the computer is probably adjusting the timing on the fly as you check/adjust. After you remove the jumper, timing will be anywhere from 12 to 22 degrees according to Haynes, so you can see the wide variation. The FSM does not give a non-jumper timing spec. When I did mine I found the timing stable at 10 degrees with jumper. After I did my timing belt it was about 8 degrees stable on the re-check, so I just adjusted it to 10 degrees. It runs fine. Remember to try and look at the marks directly above and not at an angle. Once you remove the jumper you can check timing and see where the marks line up. If your timing is going down to 5 degrees after jumper removal you did it incorrectly. Factory idle is 750 +/- 50 rpm with warm engine. Higher idle will occur until the engine warms so your 900 at cold is ok. 

Pedro, I did let the engine warm up so 900 rpm idel is warm.    the most confusing thing was when I set the timing with the terminals jumped, i set the timing at the mid mark (about 8*) and then when I removed the jumper, the timing went to below 5* btdc at idel.  it actually retarded the timing when I removed the jumper wire.  so if I were to set the timing at 5* btdc it would retard it further once I removed the jumper and and still be around 5-0*.  isnt the timing suposto advance when I remove the jumper wire and return the timing to 12-22* Btdc.   now I got no idea what is going on.  could the ECU be fried???    If i just so happend to jump a tooth on the timing belt on the crank pully that would advance/retard the spark in refrence to where the pistons are but then I dont think it would run so smooth and AND this doesnt explain why the timing is retarding (happening later in the pistons movement) when I remove the jumper wire. 

deanp, the timing should advance when jumper is removed. This same jumper wire procedure is used on another vehicle I have and that vehicle's timing also advances when jumper is removed. You are sure you have the timing light hooked to #1 spark plug wire, the one on the end passenger side? : >)

I also assume the idle was ok before all this happened? I would check your mechanical timing if you think you could have jumped a tooth. I also think that if you were a tooth or so off you should still be able to adjust the ignition timing, you would just have to turn the dist. a little further. Is the rotational position of the distributor about midway on full adjustment or is it turned way over to one side or the other? I have no idea about ECU. I would think you would get go/nogo if it were bad??? You did say you can drive the car ok now, it's just the timing/idle issue? Only way to fix idle would be to check IAC system unless timing is way advanced, which it doesn't seem to be.
 
edit: Did you get to try that igniter?   

I didnt try the ignitor cuz I got it running before getting the chance to get one and I didnt want to front the $240 if I didnt have to.  do you think It could still be bad?  I do have the light hooked up to cyl #1.  passanger side opposite the disty and transmission.   so just to clarify, when I remove the jumper wire, the timing should go from about 8-10* Btdc to about 12-22*Btdc.  instead when I remove the wire, the timing goes to 3-5* btdc. (the opposite direction).  the idle was fine before the car died.  I will take a look at the timing belt but I still dont understand what could be making the computer retard the timing when I remove the jumper wire as apose to advancing it like it should. Thanks again Pedro, your the only one out of all the places ive tried that has consistantly helped me out with this. Not to say that I dont appreciate those of you who occasionally drop by to give advise.  I appreciate it all.   this is my girlfiends car so its not my specialty.   If you guys ever have problems with a ford PGT, taurus SHO or datsun 280z    ill totally return the favor. Thanks again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: deanp

I didnt try the ignitor cuz I got it running before getting the chance to get one and I didnt want to front the $240 if I didnt have to.  do you think It could still be bad?

I don't think it's bad but for free test I thought you might have tried it since this problem is so hard to trace.

quote:

so just to clarify, when I remove the jumper wire, the timing should go from about 8-10* Btdc to about 12-22*Btdc.

Yes

Also, was I correct to assume that you said if you give it gas it runs fine?

quote:

ORIGINAL: deanp

I didnt try the ignitor cuz I got it running before getting the chance to get one and I didnt want to front the $240 if I didnt have to.  do you think It could still be bad?  I do have the light hooked up to cyl #1.  passanger side opposite the disty and transmission.   so just to clarify, when I remove the jumper wire, the timing should go from about 8-10* Btdc to about 12-22*Btdc.  instead when I remove the wire, the timing goes to 3-5* btdc. (the opposite direction).  the idle was fine before the car died.  I will take a look at the timing belt but I still dont understand what could be making the computer retard the timing when I remove the jumper wire as apose to advancing it like it should. Thanks again Pedro, your the only one out of all the places ive tried that has consistantly helped me out with this. Not to say that I dont appreciate those of you who occasionally drop by to give advise.  I appreciate it all.   this is my girlfiends car so its not my specialty.   If you guys ever have problems with a ford PGT, taurus SHO or datsun 280z    ill totally return the favor. Thanks again.

 
 
with Te1 and E1 shorted the timing should be set a 10 deg...making sure the check engine light is flashing...when the jumper wire is removed the timing should go back to 8 deg..

Pedro: yeah, I still should get the ignitor.  I thought that maybe after I got it running that the car was fine and I just needed to adjust the timing or something. Now that Im more unveiling that there is a larger underlying problem, I still might pick one up.  Its just Im obscenley broke right now (spent about $600 this month on other car repairs) and cant front $240 even if Im getting it back. Next paycheck.   
and yes, if I give it gas and just drive it normal, it runs great untill I have to sit at a light for a little bit.

toyoboy:  are you sure the timing is suposto to retard when you get out of diag mode. everything I have read (haynes, several forums, toyota tech) says that it will advance (go from 10* to 12-22* btdc), which is why Im so confused that my timing is going from 8* in diag mode and then dropping to 3-4* when I pull the jumper, but if  I am mistaken and you are correct, than  the car is performing as it should. Can someone please verify this as this will answer many of my questions.

deanp, don't bother with the igniter, if it runs ok off idle don't waste your time or money - the igniter's fine. I'll check my timing tonight when my wife gets home with the car and let you know what my jumper off timing is. Check to make sure your lower timing belt cover is on strait as that will shift the timing mark. Also make sure you have the right mark on the crankshaft pulley. I mark mine with white paint or correcting fluid. Your bad idle may be why your timing is off??? Maybe an IAC cleaning is in order.

Well I just checked my timing without the jumper wire, it was 5 degrees BTDC. I know the jumper-on timing was 10 degrees so I guess you're OK deanp. Just adjust it to 10 degrees with jumper-on as is instructed on the factory hood sticker. I guess you need to find out why the idle is so poor. Back to leaking EGR, vacuum leak, IAC needs cleaning.  

So your timing was at 10* btdc with teh jumper on and 5* btdc with the jumper off.    Thanks... alot. Now im less confused but still frusterated. oh well, at least it will drive fine. back to the drawing board. 

ok so... I drove it around a bit yesterday and it drove just fine.  Just as much power as I expected.  the stumbeling at idle went way down but now the situation is:

after it has heated up, if it is sitting at idle in park or neutral, the car will idle pretty darn smooth and at the right RPM with the random occasional hickup, which just looks like a slight bump on the tach. a slight prob but nothing to worry about.  BUT, when it is in gear,  Reverse or Drive, it will hicup and learch a little. the stumbel is way more severe and common when the car is in gear.  once it felt like it was going to die ( but it hasnt yet ) after I got done with a long drive and just sat there idling with the car still in gear.   the timing is set right and there wasnt an idle problem before the car died.   What does the car change once you shift into gear.  is runs to redline fine so I really doubt its a fuel prob,  what could be causing it to tweak out when it is in gear but run much smoother in park?

is it possible that the starter fluid gummed up the idle air controll valve?????

once again, thanks guys for all your help.

Since the idle is ok now I don't think your IAC is a problem. Starting fluid is usually just ether and does not leave a residue. When you put the car in gear you begin to load the engine so problems with fuel or spark will be more noticable. Did you run it to redline in gear or park/neutral? Try taking it up some hills where you have to really give it gas and see if the missing gets worse. Missing under load is back to spark or fuel. Have you done a compression check since all this started? I don't know if you have a shop with a dyno or not, but if you can afford it, using one with a scope might pinpoint the problem pretty fast. I'm travelling right now so maybe someone else could give their thoughts.

well yesterday I did one final ignition timing check and now its right on the dot. 10* BTDC with the pins jumped and then it goes to about 5* BTDC when I remove the jumper wire.  I dumped some concentrated techron into a half tank of gas just for kicks. also took off the disty cap to see how that looks since I replaced it.  a little wear in but nothing out of the normal, no moisture.  I sprayed some carb/tb cleaner into the idle controller port and feathered the throttel to keep 'er a live.     Since this last night, ive spent about 45 mins driving it and it has only hickuped once.  so whatever it is, its gradually going away.  Once again, it seams like this car is just fixing itself because I havnt really done anything that should fix much.  still confused but at least the situation is improving.....for now.  

i took it to redline in drive. i dont really like to rev engines without a load. I have gotton on it up a little hill. No sign of anything wrong. I will perform a comp check some time hopefully soon, but now that the cam is running, i need to start getting the lexus ready for my cali road trip in a couple weeks. car work just never ends.

still, if anyone has any ideas what could be causing this funky and very random idle miss, let me know. Thanks