95 2.2 auto wont start, please help - Page 3

Been watching this saga. Deanp, you said it fixed itself. The only thig I saw that may have fixed it was replacing the battery.  I work on Toyotas for a living. I have seen cars that will not run due to a bad battery that sometimes doesn't give out enough voltage even if the alternator is outputting.  An internal short in the battery can cause this.  The car won't run well on too low a voltage.  One other thing.  Have you checked your air intake tube for cracks?

well thanks, not to be a dick  but if you work on toyotas for a living and you have a prediction about what the problem was and you have been "watching this saga" than why have you decided to mention this AFTER it has been fixed.  I know batts can keep a car from starting and I made sure this wasnt the problem. even to go as far as swapping in a known good battery and trying it. well it wasnt the batt. 

I believe I mentioned it before but "fixing" this car was all to easy. i never really replaced anything that needed replacing  and that whatever had failed before will fail for good soon and then I can track it down more easily.   WELL tonight was that night. the car finally died again, this time alot closer to home. same symptoms it started with... cranks and cranks but wont even try to start.  so im almost back to sq 1, only this time I got a way better strategy to go after it. tomorrow im gonna get it moved then wash, rinse, repeat. 

deanp, sorry for the comeback of the problem. The only thing you did not get a chance to test was the fuel pressure. I don't think we can fully accept the operation of the coil either. If you can now test the fuel pressure with the problem returned that would help. But I don't know why the fuel pressure would fail then work OK, unless there is a short somewhere. Knowing the output of the coil would help but unless you take it somewhere that will be difficult and so you can only rely on visual spark. As to the ECU???, maybe you can get it checked. I would at least check your electrical connections.

I can only really just pray that the problem will be easier to find now that, hopefully, something has failed completley.  I remember that the disty cap wore unusually fast when the car originally died.  I pulled it off and was suprised at how fast stuff had built up on the contacts since I had last checked it.  Could this be caused by weak spark?  Well this time the car started surging when driving and then it just died.  weird thing is the funky idle had gone away completley and then it died like a week later.    aaarrrrrggggg.  I know I didnt fix anything before so honestly Im not suprised but dam, I wish I knew what was going on here.  well  my focuses is spark with fuel as a not too distant second as those are the most likely areas that would fail, than come back, than fail perminantly.   so far things to check... fuel pump, coil, ignitor and of course codes.   Thanks Pedro, ill be digging up the necessary tools for a fuel pressure check but im having trouble finding my fuel gauge so I might need a new set up, which is more than I can afford right now. I dont think its a connection because I drove it for over a week without a problem but that might just be wishful thinking because I really dont want to have to track them down.  any ways, thanks for the suggestions and Ill be poping the hood tonight and will report what I find.

ok so.....updates, kinda.

Engine cranks and cranks but wont even try to fire up. no pops or spark ups at all.

timing belt is not broken
no stored codes
fuel is reaching cylinders
+ starter fluid has no effect.
Sparkplugs are not fouled



tested for spark with an extra plug and there was no spark at any of the cylinders. 

The resistance of the plug wires is kinda high but im also not sure what specs are for this brand so im not sure if there bad but they are brand new and the resistance from wire to wire is the same considering length so Im pretty sure they are good.  I will check on a working ignition system just to make sure.

The resistance on the coil is within specs.    has anyone heard of a coil that is bad but the resistance checks out fine???

when I take the disty cap off along with the plastic clip on coil cover and rotor, and I have someone crank the engine,  I can see spark arching from the high tension terminal  (the one that sends spark to the rotor) to the inside of the coil, so does this mean I should be getting spark, or should I question the coil???

Im ordering an ignitor tomorrow and calling up some local mechanics.  if anyone can think of anything, please share.  either im gonna fix this got dam car or im gonna kill myself trying.

deanp, I guess we should concentrate on spark since no spark at plugs. I doubt all the wires are bad but the resistance specs are a maximum of 25k ohm per wire. Each wire is so close to same length that the one spec number is ok. You'd probably get a miss instead of no start.
 
So we are back to tracing:
 
1. Turn ignition switch on, check for battery voltage at ign. coil + terminal ( I think you are getting that)
2. Check resistance of coil - you already did that.
3. Check resistance of signal generator (pickup coil) - I gave instructions earlier.
4. Check air gap of distributor - did you check this?
5. Check ign. signal from ECM
6. Try another ignitor - you're going to do that.
 
I think that the spark you are seeing from the HT connection of the coil is a good sign that adequate spark is being generated and that probably (best guess) the ignitor, coil and ECM are operating OK. With the rotor off, the spark needs to go somewhere, so it will go to ground. Is this what is happening? Are you sure the rotor and cap are in good shape? This could be your problem. Did you inspect the air gap? If the air gap is bad then you will need to replace the distributor housing assembly.
Air gap = .008 - .016
 
Coils are a funny thing. Years ago with another car I had an intermitant misfire under load and it turned out to be the coil. It drove me nuts as well. As the coil heated up it would act up. If your resistance is OK at ambient temp the resistance can be much higher when the coil heats up. This is hard to check as how do you check a coil resistance when the car is running. Using a hair dryer to heat the coil may work??  

I agree that the cap could be one of the problems (short in the HT contact to rotor contact) but this is a brand new cap and if it is going out this fast, there is obviousley another problem.

Yes, the spark appers to be grounding back through the coil when I dont have the rotor attached, which is really throwing me off.  the spark is pretty white and not blue but even then, I should be getting weak spark to the plugs.

Im looking to check the things you mentioned Pedro. I will check my haynes manual but off the top of your head, do you know which wire to check for ignition signal from the ECM.

The only thing I can think of is that there is a short within the coil (not sure how this is possible if the resistances still check out fine) and the spark isnt even trying to travel through the rotor, cap and wires, and maybe the gap of the plugs is enough to make the spark arch within the coil.  this would explain why it was not running before and then after I replaced the cap, rotor, wires and plugs and decreased the resistance of the spark path that it was easier for the spark to jump the plug gap instead of continue to arch to ground within the coil.  but now that, maybe, the short within the coil has gotten worse, it is always going to be easier to arch to ground no matter how new the cap and wires are.   I talked to one toyota mechanic a while ago that said that with the camry coils, it is possible for the resistance to check out fine but there will be an internal short that makes the coil nonfunctional.  I might get a new coil before trying the ignitor.  

Off the top of my head I don't know which wire from ECM. I don't think it's your ECM signal. I'm thinking coil at this point. If it is a short you could still get ok ohm reading, or at least close. Seems a lot of people here have coil problems, and it seems Camrys have this problem; but a local guy I talked to who does nothing but Toyos says he has had no problems with coils. So who knows. Can you get one from a junk yard to try?  I'm not sure how expensive they are from the dealer or aftermarket.
 
The fact that there is enough spark to jump to ground but not through rotor/cap/wires is also confusing.  

quote:

ORIGINAL: pedro
The fact that there is enough spark to jump to ground but not through rotor/cap/wires is also confusing.  

haha yeah tell me about it.  autozone has a retyrn policy for electronics and they will accept parts if I try them out and then take them back.  I found one from duralast for $50.  well im definatley no camry/toyota expert but if you check this site out, there is an obscene number of coil failures. http://en.allexperts.com/sitesearch.htm?terms=camry+coil&Action.x=0&Action.y=0

I also talked to a local toyota mechanic and he said that the coil failing is pretty common and said that what I described earlier has been knows to indicate a problem in his experience.  If anyone just so happends to stumbal on the opertunity to crank over their properly working engine with the cap, rotor, and coil cover off and find out if they experience the same thing as I am, it would be very helpful.   It seams that, from my research from the site I posted above, that the coil is the most common ignition failure, followed by the disty, and then at a distant third, the igniter.

For $50 I'd try a coil. If you remove the old one you may see if it has a crack. The arc may be coming from a crack in the coil.

well on my way home yesterday I bought a coil and threw it in later that night.  engine started right up. I mean, hell, it hardley turned over once before it was running.  now it pures smoother than ever and finally it looks like this neverending quest is over.  There still is the posibility that the problem only fixed itself again temporarily but hopefully, the coil was the only problem.  Hopefully You guys wont be hearing from me in another week or two like last time. I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread, especially you Pedro. just having another person thinking about what the problem could be is motivating to keep working on it.  Now I hope the camry community can benifit from my misery since this was so hard to locate. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: lavalleemike
I've replaced a million of these coils. There a little expensive but, at least your car will be running

 
There you go deanp, should've listened to lavalleemike way back on 5/24.  Happy driving.  

yeah, no kiddin.  see, Im no stranger to backyard mechanics so after some diagnostic work, I usually just go out and buy the part that is most likely defective but this is the girleys car so I wanted to keep the guess and check to a minimum and since the coil appeared to check out fine, I wasnt in a hurry to get one on her bill.  but yeah, hind sight, it would have saved me alot of time.

Parts stores love DIY'rs who re&re parts in an effort to diagnose problems. I guess now everytime there is a no start/no run  there will be a run on coils. I've invested in a few test tools and I think the little KV tester I purchased would have determined bad coil pretty fast. It would have shown working output rather than relying on a static ohm test. The problem with, "do this it worked for me" is everyone is right, you just need to be able to pick which of their problems is also yours.  

Gee, I didn't mean to sound like a smart-ass when I posted the other week. Sorry. What I meant was that a weak battery could still start the car sometimes, but drain down or short while running and not give enough current to allow the car to run properly.  I am agreeing with pedro in that the coil is the most likely suspect. You have to remove the dist. to see it good enough. I have also seen the small "condenser" in the dist. just below the coil fail and cause a no run situation. They are not expensive, but only avai. at the dealer. OEM coils are the only ones that are any good. Hope you get it fixed soon.