Europe/US

Hi,

Food for thoughts. I find these differences funny.

Recommended engine oil change:
US : every 3000 miles.
Europe: every 6000 miles since 80''''s, every 12000 since end of 90s, now every 24000 or even more. Diesel and petrol.

Rotating tires:
US : still yes
Europe : don''''t do since 80''''s (the average travel speed is much higher in Europe)

Timing belt change
Europe : all roller/tensioner bearings must be changed with the belt, no guarantee otherwise
US: changed only if they "look" worn
Change periods are roughly the same

Brake pads:
Europe : pads are never surfaced ; pads must be changed when rotors are changed
US : no rules, pads are surfaced

I don''t understand what you mean - "end of 80th, 90th". 80th what?

quote:

ORIGINAL: buffitz

I don''''t understand what you mean - "end of 80th, 90th". 80th what?

Sorry, my English is not perfect.
end of 80th means end of the 1980-1990 period. I''ll fix that.

quote:

Recommended engine oil change:
US : every 3000 miles.
Europe: every 6000 miles since 80''''s, every 12000 since end of 90s, now every 24000 or even more. Diesel and petrol.

Yes, the OCIs are much longer in Europe. I have been able to uncover three possible reasons for this, in order of likelihood:
 
1) the motor oils sold/used in Europe (i.e. more stringent ACEA standards) are of higher quality than the motor oils sold/used in U.S. (i.e. less stringent API standards).
 
2) difference in fuel contents/formulations: supposedly European fuel formulations are somehow less harsh on oil than U.S. fuel formulations
 
3) difference in average driving cycle: supposedly European driving cycles (e.g. longer durations; higher peak operating temperatures) are less harsh on oil than U.S. driving cycles (e.g. shorter durations; lower peak operating temperatures)

quote:

Tire swap:
US : still yes
Europe : don''''t do since 80''''s (the average travel speed is much higher in Europe)

What does this mean? Rotating tires?

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Timing belt change
Europe : all roller/tensioner bearings must be changed with the belt, no guarantee otherwise
US: changed only if they "look" worn
Change periods are roughly the same

Interesting. I didn''t know that is common practice in Europe.

quote:

Brake pads:
Europe : pads are never surfaced ; pads must be changed when rotors are changed
US : no rules, pads are surfaced

Interesting. I didn''t know that is common practice in Europe.

About oil.
The oil we find here in the store is the same as in Europe. At least Mobil/Motul/Shell/Castrol and similar. And it''s much cheaper in the US.
These oils are all both API and ACEA rated.
Not sure about the one from Juffy Lube.

The petrol is of higher octane rate in Europe, which means more additives. So I presume it should hurt more the oil.
The manual transmission makes drivers rev the engines higher than US auto trans. You never stay under 2000RPM (petrol cars).
It''''''''''''''''s difficult to estimate the impact of driving cycles. The auto transmission (rare in Europe) makes people stop in Drive position, which means the engine is more loaded then when really idling. This is certainly bad for the oil.
I''''''''''''''''m not sure the town driving conditions are worse here.

I think all that does not explain such a HUGE difference. With the same oils and same engines (sure v8 are rare in Europe).
The only "modern" car I know with shorter recommended oil change is Maserati biturbo (82-98 era). Maserati recommends every 7,500 km, 4700 miles. Full synth 10w40. Note that I''''''''''''''''m talking about 250-305hp 2L or 2.8L v6 turbo engines driven like performance cars. Actually people changes every 10,000km and there are no known problems.


But even in Europe there are interesting phenomena.
For example recent diesel engines, which run twice higher compression ratio and almost as high RPM as petrol ones, don''''''''''''''''t need break in. While petrol, which in theory need less precise machining, still need it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: diver1972

quote:

Tire swap:
US : still yes
Europe : don''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''t do since 80''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''s (the average travel speed is much higher in Europe)

What does this mean? Rotating tires?

Yes, sorry. Rotating. It does not exist. On my "normal" cars the tires last 30-40,000 miles.

quote:

About oil.
The oil we find here in the store is the same as in Europe. At least Mobil/Motul/Shell/Castrol and similar. And it''''s much cheaper in the US.
These oils are all both API and ACEA rated.
Not sure about the one from Juffy Lube.

Well, yes, it is possible for U.S. people to buy & use ACEA oils in their engines, the majority likely do not. That is because, like you suggested, they take their cars to express lube places that typically buy the cheapest oil of each grade/type (e.g. 10w-30, 5w-30, 10w-40, etc.) so that they can keep their supplies costs down and pass on the savings to the consumer (or increase their profit margins, depending on how you look at it). These types of places mostly do not carry and use any ACEA oils.
 
Check out these articles for some good reading on the topic of ACEA vs. API oils:
 
http://www.smartmotorist.com/car-accessories-fuel-and-maintenance/engine-oil-specifications.html
 
http://americascarshow.com/Detail.aspx?dct=51&AnnID=38&mid=1682
 
http://mysite.verizon.net/b5crazy/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/vw-audi_oil_spec_article.pdf

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The petrol is of higher octane rate in Europe, which means more additives. So I presume it should hurt more the oil.

I do not know much about fuel additives and their impact on oil contamination.
 

quote:

The manual transmission makes drivers rev the engines higher than US auto trans. You never stay under 2000RPM (petrol cars).
It''s difficult to estimate the impact of driving cycles. The auto transmission (rare in Europe) makes people stop in Drive position, which means the engine is more loaded then when really idling. This is certainly bad for the oil.

I had not thought about the differences in transmissions as a factor. Why would idling in gear (automatic) be harder on the oil than idling in neutral (manual)?

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With the same oils and same engines (sure v8 are rare in Europe).

I still do not believe that they are even close to the same, as I explained in the first paragraph of this post.

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Yes, sorry. Rotating. It does not exist. On my "normal" cars the tires last 30-40,000 miles.

Yeah, I do not frequently rotate my tires either, I might do it perhaps once or twice during their 40-50k mile life. In the past, when I rotated them regularly (e.g. every 5-7k miles), I did not find that it significantly increased tire life, nor did I detect any noticeable handling benefits.

I''m used to read standards on the oil packages because I own(ed) few performance or tunned cars. I''m absolutely sure brand oils like Castrol GTX or Motul 300v are the same here and there. They all state all these API/ACEA/Audi/Mercedes standards which don''t really help us to know if the oil is good. You can find almost any mix of standards providing they are "synthetic technology", which BTW does not mean a lot of things. The only "reliable" indicator is the price. Good pure synth oils are very expensive. But we don''t need them is regular cars. I admit that in France you can buy any "synth tech" oil in supermarket and be sure it will work well in any regular car.

However I think like you that the average US oil is of lower quality. Why would they be better if customers are educated to change them every 3000 miles ? It''s like trying to explain in the US that a 2L turbo car can be as performant as a 5L NA US v8 one.

So the conclusion would be here: don''t go to Jiffy, use good brand oil (it''s easy to check how the same oil is rated in the UK for example) and you can change it as in Europe. With one remark: we are expected to change oil every X miles AND every year. So when Audi says you can change it every 25000 miles it''s likely good for taxis but not for average customers. So no need to pay a very expensive pure synth oil.

This is how I understand the idling. Idling is bad because the engine efficiency is very low at low RPM. Most of passenger car engines are designed to be optimal around 2500-3000 RPM and start to have a decent/good efficiency at 1500 RPM. Low RPM makes poor combustion (low turbulence and combustion speed, so more unburned HC), poor ring sealing (poor ring lubrification and higher HC level which enters the oil) and poor cylinder scavenging (low gas speed).
Higher load at low RPM created by idling in gear makes a greater oil contamination as all these phenomena are amplified, even if HC level may stay the same. Anyway idling is bad for the engine, it should not exist.

The impact of fuel additives is that they are very volatile and can be more easily transported anywhere in the engine. And of course as the fuel is better, the combustion pressure is higher, so oil works in harder conditions around rings. Pistons are cooled by oil, not water.