'07 V6 2GR-FE Cat?
#1
03-15-2013, 08:06 PM
'07 V6 2GR-FE Cat?
So, it all started here: https://www.camryforums.com/forum/ge...i-break-44327/
For background- this car has 230k miles, has never been off the road a day, and has never seen a dealer for ANY maintenance. I do all fluids/filters/brakes, etc., Walmart does the tires.
Anyway, I took it to the dealer, who took 6 hours to take the damaged plug apart and re-pin it. On the way home, it threw a new code & CEL.
I had no funds to examine it further and it ran ok, and I had to drive to work, so off I went. It had a very minor surge which the tech told me was due to the computer re-learning my driving habits after being wiped. OK, I thought...
I followed the recs I got here and on some other forums and swapped the Bosch plugs for a set of OEM Densos. (I am now getting VERY good at changing the plugs in the 2GR-FE engine.)
On my test drive after changing the plugs, the car died entirely and refused to restart at all. Local shop looked at it (NOT a dealer) and discovered that the "repaired" plug had actually MELTED and that the reconnected pins hadn't been heat-shrinked or anything. This caused an intermittent misfire that ultimately fried the cat.
Anyway, local tech says: "You have three choices: A new Toyota cat for $580, an aftermarket cat for $195, or for nothing I gut this one and you drive out of here- 3 hours labor no matter what."
The questions are:
1) What are the potential negatives to an aftermarket cat? Walker, specifically?
2) Were I to choose the third option, how could that hurt the car?
I'd like to drive this car another 200k miles if I can...
For background- this car has 230k miles, has never been off the road a day, and has never seen a dealer for ANY maintenance. I do all fluids/filters/brakes, etc., Walmart does the tires.
Anyway, I took it to the dealer, who took 6 hours to take the damaged plug apart and re-pin it. On the way home, it threw a new code & CEL.
I had no funds to examine it further and it ran ok, and I had to drive to work, so off I went. It had a very minor surge which the tech told me was due to the computer re-learning my driving habits after being wiped. OK, I thought...
I followed the recs I got here and on some other forums and swapped the Bosch plugs for a set of OEM Densos. (I am now getting VERY good at changing the plugs in the 2GR-FE engine.)
On my test drive after changing the plugs, the car died entirely and refused to restart at all. Local shop looked at it (NOT a dealer) and discovered that the "repaired" plug had actually MELTED and that the reconnected pins hadn't been heat-shrinked or anything. This caused an intermittent misfire that ultimately fried the cat.
Anyway, local tech says: "You have three choices: A new Toyota cat for $580, an aftermarket cat for $195, or for nothing I gut this one and you drive out of here- 3 hours labor no matter what."
The questions are:
1) What are the potential negatives to an aftermarket cat? Walker, specifically?
2) Were I to choose the third option, how could that hurt the car?
I'd like to drive this car another 200k miles if I can...
#2
03-15-2013, 08:47 PM
What state is the car registered in? Some states require the use of state emissions approved parts which often means original factory parts.
What were the trouble codes?
How did the mechanic determine the converter was bad?
Which converter is bad, one on the head exhaust manifold or the one under the car?
What were the trouble codes?
How did the mechanic determine the converter was bad?
Which converter is bad, one on the head exhaust manifold or the one under the car?
#3
03-16-2013, 09:54 AM
What state is the car registered in? Some states require the use of state emissions approved parts which often means original factory parts.
What were the trouble codes?
How did the mechanic determine the converter was bad?
Which converter is bad, one on the head exhaust manifold or the one under the car?
What were the trouble codes?
How did the mechanic determine the converter was bad?
Which converter is bad, one on the head exhaust manifold or the one under the car?
Car is registered in MD. I'm not aware of any parts restrictions as long as it passes the sniffer test at DMV.
Started with P0420 and P0430 codes, I did not ask what the subsequent ones were. Once he showed the the melted VVTI sensor I didn't ask what the code was- it was pretty obvious.
The tech stated that the misfires had pumped unburned gas into the cat and "burned off the ceramic", and that the car would not run at all with the cat connected but would if he disconnected it entirely.
Added a photo of the cat:
Last edited by bluedogz; 03-16-2013 at 03:34 PM.
#4
03-16-2013, 11:13 PM
Your picture says it all.
After market cats tend to be smaller to use less precious metal and keep the price down to the consumer. The result is they may not last as long as the original Toyota converter. How long, don't know. Some complain about needing a new one in 30K miles. In theory the original cat should last the life of the car.
Don't gut it or the codes will never go away. The computer uses exhaust gas sensors before and after the cat to determine if it is working OK.
You could gut the cat and install an O2 eliminator for the sensor after the cat, it simulates a working converter. Of course gutting the cat is illegal.
3 hours labor seems high to swap a converter, did the mechanic do other things to the car?
Suggest you find out the total labor costs and stack this up against how long you are planning to keep the car. The cheaper cat may not seem such a deal if you need to change it again given labor costs before getting rid of the car.
Make sure the mechanic fixes the original problem so as not to repeat the cat failure.
There may be another cat built into each exhaust manifold for a total of 3 cats. If so, make sure the exhaust manifold cat on the cylinder bank having the misfire is not damaged. No sense fixing one problem then finding out there is another.
One other issue is scrap cats have salvage value for the precious metal inside them, perhaps $75.
After market cats tend to be smaller to use less precious metal and keep the price down to the consumer. The result is they may not last as long as the original Toyota converter. How long, don't know. Some complain about needing a new one in 30K miles. In theory the original cat should last the life of the car.
Don't gut it or the codes will never go away. The computer uses exhaust gas sensors before and after the cat to determine if it is working OK.
You could gut the cat and install an O2 eliminator for the sensor after the cat, it simulates a working converter. Of course gutting the cat is illegal.
3 hours labor seems high to swap a converter, did the mechanic do other things to the car?
Suggest you find out the total labor costs and stack this up against how long you are planning to keep the car. The cheaper cat may not seem such a deal if you need to change it again given labor costs before getting rid of the car.
Make sure the mechanic fixes the original problem so as not to repeat the cat failure.
There may be another cat built into each exhaust manifold for a total of 3 cats. If so, make sure the exhaust manifold cat on the cylinder bank having the misfire is not damaged. No sense fixing one problem then finding out there is another.
One other issue is scrap cats have salvage value for the precious metal inside them, perhaps $75.
Last edited by toyomoho; 03-16-2013 at 11:16 PM.
#5
03-17-2013, 08:47 AM
Your picture says it all.
After market cats tend to be smaller to use less precious metal and keep the price down to the consumer. The result is they may not last as long as the original Toyota converter. How long, don't know. Some complain about needing a new one in 30K miles. In theory the original cat should last the life of the car.
Don't gut it or the codes will never go away. The computer uses exhaust gas sensors before and after the cat to determine if it is working OK.
You could gut the cat and install an O2 eliminator for the sensor after the cat, it simulates a working converter. Of course gutting the cat is illegal.
3 hours labor seems high to swap a converter, did the mechanic do other things to the car?
Suggest you find out the total labor costs and stack this up against how long you are planning to keep the car. The cheaper cat may not seem such a deal if you need to change it again given labor costs before getting rid of the car.
Make sure the mechanic fixes the original problem so as not to repeat the cat failure.
There may be another cat built into each exhaust manifold for a total of 3 cats. If so, make sure the exhaust manifold cat on the cylinder bank having the misfire is not damaged. No sense fixing one problem then finding out there is another.
One other issue is scrap cats have salvage value for the precious metal inside them, perhaps $75.
After market cats tend to be smaller to use less precious metal and keep the price down to the consumer. The result is they may not last as long as the original Toyota converter. How long, don't know. Some complain about needing a new one in 30K miles. In theory the original cat should last the life of the car.
Don't gut it or the codes will never go away. The computer uses exhaust gas sensors before and after the cat to determine if it is working OK.
You could gut the cat and install an O2 eliminator for the sensor after the cat, it simulates a working converter. Of course gutting the cat is illegal.
3 hours labor seems high to swap a converter, did the mechanic do other things to the car?
Suggest you find out the total labor costs and stack this up against how long you are planning to keep the car. The cheaper cat may not seem such a deal if you need to change it again given labor costs before getting rid of the car.
Make sure the mechanic fixes the original problem so as not to repeat the cat failure.
There may be another cat built into each exhaust manifold for a total of 3 cats. If so, make sure the exhaust manifold cat on the cylinder bank having the misfire is not damaged. No sense fixing one problem then finding out there is another.
One other issue is scrap cats have salvage value for the precious metal inside them, perhaps $75.
The point of my questions is that I plan to keep this car as long as possible. It's already got 230k on it, and is paid for.
Right at the moment, I am trying to keep it on the road without damaging it further. That's why I asked about potential consequences of the aftermarket cat. Tech commented that the "pre-cat" on the manifold was undamaged.
You're right- labor charges included diag/replace VVTI sensors with OEM on the inboard bank.
You mention "the picture says it all"... what exactly does the picture say, in your opinion?
#6
03-17-2013, 10:01 AM
An aftermarket cat installation is not going to damage the engine. It may not last as long as the factory original cat removed from the car would have if the engine did not experience the prolonged misfire condition. The misfire damaged the cat.
Unless overheated or some other non-typical reason, when cats fail they just stop working. Perhaps like chewing gum having been chewed too long and lost it flavor. It still works as gum but not very effective from a taste point of view but does no harm to the chewer.
If the labor included other repairs inquire as to how much the labor would been to just replace a cat. This being remove old cat and install new.
The Toyota replacement cat should last the life of the car. The aftermarket as stated tends to have a shorter life. The issue will be the car may fail the emissions test, the check light may come on do to codes indicating the converter is no longer working.
Depending on the costs, you might be able to over time if needed buy and install two aftermarket cats for the price of the Toyota cat. This could be another 60-100K miles of driving. Don't know how long it will last but they tend to have a shorter life vrs life of the car.
The picture shows a converter that was severely overheated and melted. This type of failure is not normal but happens if a prolonged misfire occurs. Normal failure is the cat just stops working. The indications would be the check light comes on steady red with a P0420 code or the car fails an emissions test or both. Otherwise in most cases the car tends to drive normally.
Still under normal conditions the factory cat should last as long as the car.
As I recall the computers diagnostic system is setup so the check light will blink if the code stored is one that can cause damage to the emissions system. This typically being a misfire condition. This condition requires immediate repair to avoid damaging the cat.
The converter core operates at a high temp, that is why it is made of ceramic material.
A misfire allows a fuel rich exhaust (unburned fuel) to enter the core. The result is this fuel rich exhaust will now be burned in the hot core where it should have been burned in the engine. The core now gets so hot it melts which can happen quickly, thus the blinking check light signally to get the car checked ASAP.
Unless overheated or some other non-typical reason, when cats fail they just stop working. Perhaps like chewing gum having been chewed too long and lost it flavor. It still works as gum but not very effective from a taste point of view but does no harm to the chewer.
If the labor included other repairs inquire as to how much the labor would been to just replace a cat. This being remove old cat and install new.
The Toyota replacement cat should last the life of the car. The aftermarket as stated tends to have a shorter life. The issue will be the car may fail the emissions test, the check light may come on do to codes indicating the converter is no longer working.
Depending on the costs, you might be able to over time if needed buy and install two aftermarket cats for the price of the Toyota cat. This could be another 60-100K miles of driving. Don't know how long it will last but they tend to have a shorter life vrs life of the car.
The picture shows a converter that was severely overheated and melted. This type of failure is not normal but happens if a prolonged misfire occurs. Normal failure is the cat just stops working. The indications would be the check light comes on steady red with a P0420 code or the car fails an emissions test or both. Otherwise in most cases the car tends to drive normally.
Still under normal conditions the factory cat should last as long as the car.
As I recall the computers diagnostic system is setup so the check light will blink if the code stored is one that can cause damage to the emissions system. This typically being a misfire condition. This condition requires immediate repair to avoid damaging the cat.
The converter core operates at a high temp, that is why it is made of ceramic material.
A misfire allows a fuel rich exhaust (unburned fuel) to enter the core. The result is this fuel rich exhaust will now be burned in the hot core where it should have been burned in the engine. The core now gets so hot it melts which can happen quickly, thus the blinking check light signally to get the car checked ASAP.
#7
03-17-2013, 02:41 PM
An aftermarket cat installation is not going to damage the engine. It may not last as long as the factory original cat removed from the car would have if the engine did not experience the prolonged misfire condition. The misfire damaged the cat.
Unless overheated or some other non-typical reason, when cats fail they just stop working. Perhaps like chewing gum having been chewed too long and lost it flavor. It still works as gum but not very effective from a taste point of view but does no harm to the chewer.
If the labor included other repairs inquire as to how much the labor would been to just replace a cat. This being remove old cat and install new.
The Toyota replacement cat should last the life of the car. The aftermarket as stated tends to have a shorter life. The issue will be the car may fail the emissions test, the check light may come on do to codes indicating the converter is no longer working.
Depending on the costs, you might be able to over time if needed buy and install two aftermarket cats for the price of the Toyota cat. This could be another 60-100K miles of driving. Don't know how long it will last but they tend to have a shorter life vrs life of the car.
The picture shows a converter that was severely overheated and melted. This type of failure is not normal but happens if a prolonged misfire occurs. Normal failure is the cat just stops working. The indications would be the check light comes on steady red with a P0420 code or the car fails an emissions test or both. Otherwise in most cases the car tends to drive normally.
Still under normal conditions the factory cat should last as long as the car.
As I recall the computers diagnostic system is setup so the check light will blink if the code stored is one that can cause damage to the emissions system. This typically being a misfire condition. This condition requires immediate repair to avoid damaging the cat.
The converter core operates at a high temp, that is why it is made of ceramic material.
A misfire allows a fuel rich exhaust (unburned fuel) to enter the core. The result is this fuel rich exhaust will now be burned in the hot core where it should have been burned in the engine. The core now gets so hot it melts which can happen quickly, thus the blinking check light signally to get the car checked ASAP.
Unless overheated or some other non-typical reason, when cats fail they just stop working. Perhaps like chewing gum having been chewed too long and lost it flavor. It still works as gum but not very effective from a taste point of view but does no harm to the chewer.
If the labor included other repairs inquire as to how much the labor would been to just replace a cat. This being remove old cat and install new.
The Toyota replacement cat should last the life of the car. The aftermarket as stated tends to have a shorter life. The issue will be the car may fail the emissions test, the check light may come on do to codes indicating the converter is no longer working.
Depending on the costs, you might be able to over time if needed buy and install two aftermarket cats for the price of the Toyota cat. This could be another 60-100K miles of driving. Don't know how long it will last but they tend to have a shorter life vrs life of the car.
The picture shows a converter that was severely overheated and melted. This type of failure is not normal but happens if a prolonged misfire occurs. Normal failure is the cat just stops working. The indications would be the check light comes on steady red with a P0420 code or the car fails an emissions test or both. Otherwise in most cases the car tends to drive normally.
Still under normal conditions the factory cat should last as long as the car.
As I recall the computers diagnostic system is setup so the check light will blink if the code stored is one that can cause damage to the emissions system. This typically being a misfire condition. This condition requires immediate repair to avoid damaging the cat.
The converter core operates at a high temp, that is why it is made of ceramic material.
A misfire allows a fuel rich exhaust (unburned fuel) to enter the core. The result is this fuel rich exhaust will now be burned in the hot core where it should have been burned in the engine. The core now gets so hot it melts which can happen quickly, thus the blinking check light signally to get the car checked ASAP.
I did have the CEL blink at one time. I didn't know what it meant but it seemed like a big deal so I pulled over immediately. After a 5-minute wait, I restarted the car and it SEEMED to run normally. Afterwards, I took it to the dealer, who never mentioned cat damage or anything else.
I did have a prolonged misfire due to the bad VVTI sensor... so I guess that's where an expensive repair turned into a REALLY expensive repair.
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