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2GR-FEV6 LSC 90K (recall) oil line fails-Dealer won't cover damages - WARNING
#1
01-11-2012, 07:57 AM
2GR-FEV6 LSC 90K (recall) oil line fails-Dealer won't cover damages - WARNING
A new and important development has occurred that is very troubling and may ultimately affect many or almost all of the 1.6 million vehicles affected by the LSC 90K (recall) which replaces a defective rubber oil line hose with a replacement hose that was supposed to be stronger. Despite the fact that the "campaign" documents essentially extend the "warranty" to March 2013, Arlington Toyota of Palatine Illinois (a Chicago suburb) has refused to cover oil line replacement and engine damage caused when the new rubber recall hose replacement rutptured and the engine essentially ran out of oil. If you own a model year 2007 to 2009 3.5L V6 Camry manufactured prior to April, 2008, this applies to your vehicle !!
Facts as follows: The owner of a 2006 Rav4 (same engine with same recall as Camry) with a placed in service date of 07/25/06 and 48,500 miles has a well maintained vehicle which the dealer does not dispute. In April 2010 at 31,719 miles, she had oil change and recall service performed at Arlington Toyota. According to her receipt, correct parts were replaced pursuant to LSC 90K. The car was taken into Arlington Toyota for service every 5K miles thereafter. Then, 16,652 miles after the vvt-i recall hose was replaced - on Christmas eve 2011 and just 2,000 miles since her last oil change visit, the replacement oil line ruptured causing the oil to rapidly drain out of the engine so she has it towed to Arlington Toyota.
Arlington Toyota chose to ignore the March 2013 date noted in the LSC 90K documents and tells her "you are only entitled to one oil line replacement .... " and hands her a $700 bill for new oil hose, ancillary damage, and tow. Within 15 minutes of driving it off the lot, the engine starts making loud noises and it is towed back to Arlington Toyota. They tell her essentially "tough luck" and want $1,200 just to inspect the engine for damage .... which is probably going to run into the thousands of dollars. She calls Toyota headquarters and gets no relief.
The car is sitting at the dealer now and owner is frustrated to say the least. I called the sevice director at Arlington Toyota and he was totally unresponsive.
I describe this situation in more detail at the top of the following website:
https://sites.google.com/site/toyotav6oillinescandal/
As you can see from that website and many other instances in several threads here in the Rav4 World forums, Avalon, Camry and other forums and websites -dealers do routinly make post warranty repairs for ancillary engine damage related to failed oil lines ...... although some people really have to fight for it.
Look at how fast this oil line ruptured - just 16,652 miles and 20 months after the original installation. Even the old 2005 Avalon hoses did not go out this fast. What is particularly absurd here is that had the owner NOT taken the vehicle in at all for the recall in April 2010 and the origianl oil line failed, she clearly would have been covered by LSC 90K since that document clearly states the "recall" is good through April 2013 and there is no sense of urgency about bringing the car in prior to that date. Since the new improved rubber oil line is suppose to be reinforced with Kevlar or some other such substance, I didn't figure we'd be hearing about any failed LSC 90K replacement rubber hoses until about 2015 !!!!!!
Another LSC 90K Oil Line failure: A similar story is found in the Edmunds.com Camry forum where a 2008 Camry had the recall performed in September 2010 and the replacement oil line blew Thanksgiving day 2011. The dealer paid for the repair but the person that posted the
announcment does not accept private messages so it cannot be confirmed that the car was still within the 60,000 mile limit of the powertrain warranty.
Question: Has anyone ever even heard of ano other case where the oil line recall repair failed and if so, how was the issue resolved? Obviously in this case, either the dealer did not perform the origianl service, the service was done incorrectly, or Toyota had a bad batch of parts ........ all of which SHOULD have been investigated as soon as the hose failed. Please PM me or post here any responses. Also, any advice from anyone who sees this and works for a Toyota dealer or Toyota itself?
Warning to anyone with 2GR-FE V6 engines manufactured prior to April 2008 where the recall has been performed: If the new hose is subject to failure, essentially 1.5 million or so people are driving vehicles that are potentially "ticking timebombs." If other dealers follow the policy of Arlington Toyota, once your powertrain warranty has expired by either the passage of time or by the mileage limit and it has been more than one year since the LSC 90K oil line replacement was done, then repairs that occur as a result - which can easily run into the thousands of dollars - will not be covered by Toyota.
What you can do if your affected vehicle is approaching or has past the applicable dates of warranty expiration: Go back to your dealer and demand that the dealer either:
(1) replace the "band aid" rubber hose fix called for in the LSC 90K with the same all metal oil line that Toyota installed on all 2GR-FE V6 engines mamufactured beginning in 2008 even if you have to pay some reasonable charge. There are many threads in many Toyota forums on this (as well as the aforementioned website). Many people have already used the metal oil line replacement despite an assortment of lame excuses by dealers stating that the metal version would not fit their car OR the all metal line would void their warranty
or
(2) that the dealer put in writing that the LSC 90K replacement hose is guaranteed until at least March 2013 ... or longer.
Update January 23, 2012: Owner made a written appeal to the President & General manager of Arlington Toyota and he was responsive. The dealership "went to bat" for the owner and Toyota has agrees to make the repairs at no cost to the owner.
Facts as follows: The owner of a 2006 Rav4 (same engine with same recall as Camry) with a placed in service date of 07/25/06 and 48,500 miles has a well maintained vehicle which the dealer does not dispute. In April 2010 at 31,719 miles, she had oil change and recall service performed at Arlington Toyota. According to her receipt, correct parts were replaced pursuant to LSC 90K. The car was taken into Arlington Toyota for service every 5K miles thereafter. Then, 16,652 miles after the vvt-i recall hose was replaced - on Christmas eve 2011 and just 2,000 miles since her last oil change visit, the replacement oil line ruptured causing the oil to rapidly drain out of the engine so she has it towed to Arlington Toyota.
Arlington Toyota chose to ignore the March 2013 date noted in the LSC 90K documents and tells her "you are only entitled to one oil line replacement .... " and hands her a $700 bill for new oil hose, ancillary damage, and tow. Within 15 minutes of driving it off the lot, the engine starts making loud noises and it is towed back to Arlington Toyota. They tell her essentially "tough luck" and want $1,200 just to inspect the engine for damage .... which is probably going to run into the thousands of dollars. She calls Toyota headquarters and gets no relief.
The car is sitting at the dealer now and owner is frustrated to say the least. I called the sevice director at Arlington Toyota and he was totally unresponsive.
I describe this situation in more detail at the top of the following website:
https://sites.google.com/site/toyotav6oillinescandal/
As you can see from that website and many other instances in several threads here in the Rav4 World forums, Avalon, Camry and other forums and websites -dealers do routinly make post warranty repairs for ancillary engine damage related to failed oil lines ...... although some people really have to fight for it.
Look at how fast this oil line ruptured - just 16,652 miles and 20 months after the original installation. Even the old 2005 Avalon hoses did not go out this fast. What is particularly absurd here is that had the owner NOT taken the vehicle in at all for the recall in April 2010 and the origianl oil line failed, she clearly would have been covered by LSC 90K since that document clearly states the "recall" is good through April 2013 and there is no sense of urgency about bringing the car in prior to that date. Since the new improved rubber oil line is suppose to be reinforced with Kevlar or some other such substance, I didn't figure we'd be hearing about any failed LSC 90K replacement rubber hoses until about 2015 !!!!!!
Another LSC 90K Oil Line failure: A similar story is found in the Edmunds.com Camry forum where a 2008 Camry had the recall performed in September 2010 and the replacement oil line blew Thanksgiving day 2011. The dealer paid for the repair but the person that posted the
announcment does not accept private messages so it cannot be confirmed that the car was still within the 60,000 mile limit of the powertrain warranty.
Question: Has anyone ever even heard of ano other case where the oil line recall repair failed and if so, how was the issue resolved? Obviously in this case, either the dealer did not perform the origianl service, the service was done incorrectly, or Toyota had a bad batch of parts ........ all of which SHOULD have been investigated as soon as the hose failed. Please PM me or post here any responses. Also, any advice from anyone who sees this and works for a Toyota dealer or Toyota itself?
Warning to anyone with 2GR-FE V6 engines manufactured prior to April 2008 where the recall has been performed: If the new hose is subject to failure, essentially 1.5 million or so people are driving vehicles that are potentially "ticking timebombs." If other dealers follow the policy of Arlington Toyota, once your powertrain warranty has expired by either the passage of time or by the mileage limit and it has been more than one year since the LSC 90K oil line replacement was done, then repairs that occur as a result - which can easily run into the thousands of dollars - will not be covered by Toyota.
What you can do if your affected vehicle is approaching or has past the applicable dates of warranty expiration: Go back to your dealer and demand that the dealer either:
(1) replace the "band aid" rubber hose fix called for in the LSC 90K with the same all metal oil line that Toyota installed on all 2GR-FE V6 engines mamufactured beginning in 2008 even if you have to pay some reasonable charge. There are many threads in many Toyota forums on this (as well as the aforementioned website). Many people have already used the metal oil line replacement despite an assortment of lame excuses by dealers stating that the metal version would not fit their car OR the all metal line would void their warranty
or
(2) that the dealer put in writing that the LSC 90K replacement hose is guaranteed until at least March 2013 ... or longer.
Update January 23, 2012: Owner made a written appeal to the President & General manager of Arlington Toyota and he was responsive. The dealership "went to bat" for the owner and Toyota has agrees to make the repairs at no cost to the owner.
Last edited by Paul3637; 01-23-2012 at 04:27 PM. Reason: Update
#2
01-11-2012, 10:41 AM
Perhaps the individual with the 2006 RAV 4 should hire an attorney given the cost of a new engine will be into the thousands. But first stop payment on whatever check or credit card payment was made for the repairs.
The dealer should have inspected the engine for damage prior to doing the repair work, not just fix the leak
Address this problem to the Director of Toyota Motor Corporation and the Customer Retention person. The address info is listed in a post at this site.
The dealers are free to do what they want. You are talking to the people who may not care.
Toyota once had great products but no longer does. The new Director of TMC is doing his best to change things but his worker bees may not see the company the way he does. Change from the top can be very difficult in impose.
In the future buy another make of car, reduced sales makes most corporate managers motivated to do something.
Of course all makers of cars have their horror stories, not limited to Toyota. But they claimed quality and the customer were No 1 too long when only sales mattered.
They are now reaping what they have sown in declining sales and profits.
That old Toyota feeling is no more.
The dealer should have inspected the engine for damage prior to doing the repair work, not just fix the leak
Address this problem to the Director of Toyota Motor Corporation and the Customer Retention person. The address info is listed in a post at this site.
The dealers are free to do what they want. You are talking to the people who may not care.
Toyota once had great products but no longer does. The new Director of TMC is doing his best to change things but his worker bees may not see the company the way he does. Change from the top can be very difficult in impose.
In the future buy another make of car, reduced sales makes most corporate managers motivated to do something.
Of course all makers of cars have their horror stories, not limited to Toyota. But they claimed quality and the customer were No 1 too long when only sales mattered.
They are now reaping what they have sown in declining sales and profits.
That old Toyota feeling is no more.
#3
01-11-2012, 11:41 AM
Thanks Joey - do I have address correct?
Perhaps the individual with the 2006 RAV 4 should hire an attorney given the cost of a new engine will be into the thousands. But first stop payment on whatever check or credit card payment was made for the repairs.
The dealer should have inspected the engine for damage prior to doing the repair work, not just fix the leak
Address this problem to the Director of Toyota Motor Corporation and the Customer Retention person. The address info is listed in a post at this site.
The dealers are free to do what they want. You are talking to the people who may not care.
Toyota once had great products but no longer does. The new Director of TMC is doing his best to change things but his worker bees may not see the company the way he does. Change from the top can be very difficult in impose.
In the future buy another make of car, reduced sales makes most corporate managers motivated to do something.
Of course all makers of cars have their horror stories, not limited to Toyota. But they claimed quality and the customer were No 1 too long when only sales mattered.
They are now reaping what they have sown in declining sales and profits.
That old Toyota feeling is no more.
The dealer should have inspected the engine for damage prior to doing the repair work, not just fix the leak
Address this problem to the Director of Toyota Motor Corporation and the Customer Retention person. The address info is listed in a post at this site.
The dealers are free to do what they want. You are talking to the people who may not care.
Toyota once had great products but no longer does. The new Director of TMC is doing his best to change things but his worker bees may not see the company the way he does. Change from the top can be very difficult in impose.
In the future buy another make of car, reduced sales makes most corporate managers motivated to do something.
Of course all makers of cars have their horror stories, not limited to Toyota. But they claimed quality and the customer were No 1 too long when only sales mattered.
They are now reaping what they have sown in declining sales and profits.
That old Toyota feeling is no more.
Thanks Joey.
I just found another case just like this .... not sure how I missed it the first time ...... but it looks like the dealer in that case DID pay for second repair. Not sure how I missed it on my first search.
It is on the Edmuds Camry forum but the link won't post so it can be looked up. Here is what is says:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX?12@@.f24a4c4/1
Defective oil hose by jennanc07
Nov 28, 2011 (6:29 am)
This thread is started as an informational thread only. I had the external oil hose that has been identified by Toyota as a recall (however, I am not sure if it was an 'official' recall, as I never received notification beforehand) replaced in Sept 2010, on my 2008 Camry . On Thanksgiving day, 2011, my car started making a weird clicking noise. Long story short, the 'replaced' oil hose had blown and my car ended up with no oil in it, other than enough oil to make the engine turn. I took it back the following day, spent 4 hours in there having them replace it, giving it another oil change (in which I was only halfway into from my last oil change) and they also had to detail the engine and undercarriage for the 'displaced' oil that got all over the car. So, just keep an eye on this hose, because apparently, the replacement hoses can also be defective.
*************
As for the conacts you suggested, the only ones I can find on this site are in the I4 oil consumption thread on this site as follows:
I have been suggesting people write the President of Toyota North America stating their concerns. I doubt if you will get satisfaction but also doubt top management has a clue as what's going on and how this is causing bad PR for Toyota and lost future sales.
If writing be polite, anger is just a turnoff. Give them an chance to make it right, but state politely if no satisfactory resolution your next car will not be a Toyota.
This tread has had thousands of views (11000 plus). Highly unusual!!!!!!! Thus there must be others in the same boat.
Mr Yoshimi Inaba
President and COO; Chairman and CEO, Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.
9 W. 57th St.
Ste. 4900 Fax:
New York NY 10019
Phone: 212-223-0303
Fax: 212-759-7670
__________________
Joey P
Is this correct?
Thanks, Paul
Last edited by Paul3637; 01-11-2012 at 11:49 AM.
#4
01-11-2012, 12:40 PM
In general not sure what can be done. Toyota appears to have little input with dealers who have great latitude. A dealer can offer goodwill out of warranty incentives to owners ranging from free repairs to ½ priced repairs to customer pays for parts only, etc.
Given the owner appears to have had all their service on the car preformed at the dealer would have expected more dealer support.
The TSB fixes the car but only under the terms stated which was 60K miles/60 months.
Given the car is out of warranty the dealer is under no obligation to do any warranty work.
This oil leak issue is common and often results in the engine running low or out of oil. The dealer should have inspected the engine prior to doing repairs. It would be logically to assume an engine running low or out of oil might be damaged and confer with the owner before any repairs.
The owner should have contested the oil line repair charges.
Not sure how successful a lawyer would be. She should spend ½ hour with an attorney going over her options, if any. Many localities have a low cost lawyer referral service where the first ½ hour is under $40.
She can express her frustration to the Director/CEO of Toyota Akio Toyoda, a grandson of the founder. Mr. Toyoda has expressed his opinion that Toyota quality has been dropping since 2003, a refreshing statement.
I doubt if Toyota upper management is fully aware of the poor customer support and car repair issues at the local levels. That stated attempts to pursue dealers often results in stonewalling.
The above is not much help. I have no silver bullet. The dealer can help or not, in this case they choose not to. The Toyota rep often backs the dealer. The warranty has expired, etc. The car owner is left in the cold.
The state the person lives in may have some kind of mandatory (for the dealer) arbitration to dispute repair work.
Pursue the chain of command and any appeals processes Toyota offers first before taking other action as this will most like sever any help from the dealer
Suggest having any work done at another shop preferably not a Toyota dealer. It is one thing to be be taken advantage of and treated poorly; it is another to continue frequenting the same business that took advantage of you in the first place.
There are some threads at the Toyotanation website on this issue if you have not already read them.
Given the owner appears to have had all their service on the car preformed at the dealer would have expected more dealer support.
The TSB fixes the car but only under the terms stated which was 60K miles/60 months.
Given the car is out of warranty the dealer is under no obligation to do any warranty work.
This oil leak issue is common and often results in the engine running low or out of oil. The dealer should have inspected the engine prior to doing repairs. It would be logically to assume an engine running low or out of oil might be damaged and confer with the owner before any repairs.
The owner should have contested the oil line repair charges.
Not sure how successful a lawyer would be. She should spend ½ hour with an attorney going over her options, if any. Many localities have a low cost lawyer referral service where the first ½ hour is under $40.
She can express her frustration to the Director/CEO of Toyota Akio Toyoda, a grandson of the founder. Mr. Toyoda has expressed his opinion that Toyota quality has been dropping since 2003, a refreshing statement.
I doubt if Toyota upper management is fully aware of the poor customer support and car repair issues at the local levels. That stated attempts to pursue dealers often results in stonewalling.
The above is not much help. I have no silver bullet. The dealer can help or not, in this case they choose not to. The Toyota rep often backs the dealer. The warranty has expired, etc. The car owner is left in the cold.
The state the person lives in may have some kind of mandatory (for the dealer) arbitration to dispute repair work.
Pursue the chain of command and any appeals processes Toyota offers first before taking other action as this will most like sever any help from the dealer
Suggest having any work done at another shop preferably not a Toyota dealer. It is one thing to be be taken advantage of and treated poorly; it is another to continue frequenting the same business that took advantage of you in the first place.
There are some threads at the Toyotanation website on this issue if you have not already read them.
Last edited by toyomoho; 01-11-2012 at 12:43 PM.
#5
01-11-2012, 01:19 PM
Thanks Joey again - I did post to toyotanation.com
I posted this exact same issue all over toyotanation and the rav4world.com forums.
WOW - what a mess !!!!!!!!!!!
You've done all you can do.
Update as of February 8, 2012: Owner appealed to the President of Arlington Toyota with positive response. Toyota picked up the tab for all repairs which essentially amounted to a new engine. Parts replaced include new short block, cam assembly, gear assembly, & water pump. Arlington is also throwing in some brake work as a goodwill gesture.
WOW - what a mess !!!!!!!!!!!
You've done all you can do.
Update as of February 8, 2012: Owner appealed to the President of Arlington Toyota with positive response. Toyota picked up the tab for all repairs which essentially amounted to a new engine. Parts replaced include new short block, cam assembly, gear assembly, & water pump. Arlington is also throwing in some brake work as a goodwill gesture.
Last edited by Paul3637; 02-09-2012 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Updates
#6
02-09-2012, 12:45 PM
ANOTHER ONE-08 Highlander LSC 90K failure & how to tell if yours was done right
Posted February 5, 2012
Warning! 2008 highlander oil leak - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums
Warning! 2008 highlander oil leak
Holy cow, I have some major oil leak on my 2008 Limited highlander this morning! On our way back from church, I noticed a "low engine pressure" message pop up for a couple of seconds and then it went away. When we reached our driveway, I saw a big puddle of oil where the vehicle was parked at the previous night, underneath the engine on the right side (left side if you are in front facing the vehicle). I immediately stopped the engine and looked underneath the hood and lo and behold, the right side of the engine is soaked with oil. I know the leak is not coming from the oil pan as there is oil even on the underside of the hood. I added about 1 quart of oil and started the engine to see where the leak is coming from and there is a steady stream of oil (not just dripping) coming from the right side of the engine. Turned off the engine, went online to do research and saw this post:
2GR-FEV6 LSC 90K (recall) oil line fails-Dealer won't cover damages-WARNING !!
Will contact Toyota first thing tomorrow morning.
PS - I've religiously brought the vehicle to Toyota dealerships for oil change every 5k miles, up to 36k. Had the 40k done at Firestone and have been doing the oil change myself at 45k and 50k. Mileage is currently at 54k. Had the oil hose replacement done in June 2010.
Here are photos:
oil puddle where vehicle was previously parked
*********
Follow the interesting saga - it's a real eye opener.
Fortunately he took pictures before the car was towed in. It is clear the recall service was never performed. They way you can tell - without even taking off the engine cover - is that there is a very visible yellow stripe on the LSC 90K hose. Plenty of pics if you click on the link.
The dealer tried to warranty it out on another vehicle - obviously so Toyota wouldn't make the dealer pay for the damages. The guy's Highlander is still under warranty and it has engine damage which the dealer did not fix. No noise, just lost power and rough running.
Warning! 2008 highlander oil leak - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums
Warning! 2008 highlander oil leak
Holy cow, I have some major oil leak on my 2008 Limited highlander this morning! On our way back from church, I noticed a "low engine pressure" message pop up for a couple of seconds and then it went away. When we reached our driveway, I saw a big puddle of oil where the vehicle was parked at the previous night, underneath the engine on the right side (left side if you are in front facing the vehicle). I immediately stopped the engine and looked underneath the hood and lo and behold, the right side of the engine is soaked with oil. I know the leak is not coming from the oil pan as there is oil even on the underside of the hood. I added about 1 quart of oil and started the engine to see where the leak is coming from and there is a steady stream of oil (not just dripping) coming from the right side of the engine. Turned off the engine, went online to do research and saw this post:
2GR-FEV6 LSC 90K (recall) oil line fails-Dealer won't cover damages-WARNING !!
Will contact Toyota first thing tomorrow morning.
PS - I've religiously brought the vehicle to Toyota dealerships for oil change every 5k miles, up to 36k. Had the 40k done at Firestone and have been doing the oil change myself at 45k and 50k. Mileage is currently at 54k. Had the oil hose replacement done in June 2010.
Here are photos:
oil puddle where vehicle was previously parked
*********
Follow the interesting saga - it's a real eye opener.
Fortunately he took pictures before the car was towed in. It is clear the recall service was never performed. They way you can tell - without even taking off the engine cover - is that there is a very visible yellow stripe on the LSC 90K hose. Plenty of pics if you click on the link.
The dealer tried to warranty it out on another vehicle - obviously so Toyota wouldn't make the dealer pay for the damages. The guy's Highlander is still under warranty and it has engine damage which the dealer did not fix. No noise, just lost power and rough running.
#7
02-10-2012, 11:36 PM
Below is something of interest if you have not seen it.
ToyotaV6OilLineScandal
This appears to be what Toyota calls a Limited Service Campaign versus a Recall.
A recall is typically for safety related issues. Examples would be the steering wheel may not have been properly tightened at the factory, air bag system may have a defect, brakes, etc.
This appears to be a 3 phase campaign with Camry included in phase 1 or 2. The press release states owners should receive notification by mail. Did you receive notification?
If your car was ever serviced by Toyota after the Campaign started for Camry the dealer should have checked the VIN to determine if your car had the repair done and if not replaced the oil line.
Recently heard of someone suing Honda in small claims court for warranty issues and winning.
Assuming Toyota had your address you should have been notified. If your car was every serviced by any Toyota dealer after the campaign started the dealer should have replaced the line.
Unfortunately Toyota waited too long to start this campaign. Oil leaks from the defective line were common prior to the campaign. Toyota's response was to fix the line but assume many engines were damaged as a result of low oil from the leak.
ToyotaV6OilLineScandal
This appears to be what Toyota calls a Limited Service Campaign versus a Recall.
A recall is typically for safety related issues. Examples would be the steering wheel may not have been properly tightened at the factory, air bag system may have a defect, brakes, etc.
This appears to be a 3 phase campaign with Camry included in phase 1 or 2. The press release states owners should receive notification by mail. Did you receive notification?
If your car was ever serviced by Toyota after the Campaign started for Camry the dealer should have checked the VIN to determine if your car had the repair done and if not replaced the oil line.
Recently heard of someone suing Honda in small claims court for warranty issues and winning.
Assuming Toyota had your address you should have been notified. If your car was every serviced by any Toyota dealer after the campaign started the dealer should have replaced the line.
Unfortunately Toyota waited too long to start this campaign. Oil leaks from the defective line were common prior to the campaign. Toyota's response was to fix the line but assume many engines were damaged as a result of low oil from the leak.
Last edited by toyomoho; 02-10-2012 at 11:45 PM.
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