Hi Everyone !
I have been visiting your forum from time to time over the past couple of years as I find it very helpful and interesting. I don't know a lot about cars in depth, however I do like to keep myself as informed as possible on matters relating to my current car that I have had since 2005. I have learnt this from past experience during the days when I was a single mother getting caught out with all sorts of problems with previous cars as I was completely clueless about the mechanics of them. Due to the lack of funds I have had some real “bombs” to drive and have on a couple of occasions been led up the garden path with incorrect diagnosis on car problems and on other occasions not done the needful in basic maintenance causing problems as well .
I have finally plucked up the courage to join your forum as I am need of advice on what I consider a distressing “catastrophe” with my once upon a time till a week ago, 1999 Toyota Camry V6 Automatic Station Wagon. It is my pride and joy and I have had her since 2005. Since then she has never once missed a beat and I have been careful to keep her in peak performance with a regular service and anything else needing to be replaced. Very recently, my husband and I shifted to the country and after about a couple of weeks in we noticed a lot of white smoke coming out of the car exhaust. This would happen in the mornings when the car was started up but it would then subside once we moved on. At first, we thought this could be condensation in the exhaust due to the weather being so cold now - especially where we are in country Victoria. However, after awhile we felt that perhaps we should have it checked in case we were wrong. Someone even suggested it might be a head gasket problem, which really concerned us. So much so, we decided to try a local mechanic (M1), as we were nervous about driving to our regular mechanic who is terrific, because of the distance factor. It now takes around an hour to get to his garage. M1 came highly recommended and as we were anxious about causing any major damage by driving it too far to have it checked, we decided to run with him.
When I had bought the car in 2005, it had done 142000kms and now it is up to 218000kms. It has had only one owner before me who had provided me with its service history showing the care taken in its maintenance.
There were a few other issues observed before the decision to use M1 and we filled him in on our concerns

• Oil level seemed to need a constant top up which was unusual and yet no leak found on the ground. As the car was running very smoothly we did not worry too much as we were due for a service and planned to have our regular service guy check it out when we took it in. This was to happen very shortly.
• We also noticed the power steering fluid level being very low at one point and we topped that up but my husband was very surprised when this happened as he had never had to do this before.
• Coolant levels also seemed to be constantly going down. Another unusual occurrence
• Finally, there has been an ongoing squeaking noise coming out of the car every time one would back out from a parked spot with the steering wheel turned hard.

All this while the car was running so well that although one knew these matters needed to be addressed it did not sound or feel in any way that these “issues “ were getting to an urgent stage.
On the first visit to M1 his observations after around 40 minutes were that all the car needed was a change of radiator cap and that would prevent any further loss of water. According to him on the face of it, the rest seemed fine. Our bill for that was $46.75 for 30 minutes of labour and $8.90 for a cap. They were also unable to see any white smoke coming out of the rear of the car even on waiting for it to cool down.

We persisted with expressing our concerns as we were worried about the possibility of something being missed and ending up with a disaster situation. It became apparent from that conversation that they had not really done a proper in depth check of the car and suggested this could be better accomplished if we brought the car for a day allowing them the time to go through it thoroughly ----perhaps when we brought it in for a service or such. They explained that during the service they would put the car on a hoist enabling an easier inspection of the whole car engine and for this a longer timeslot was essential. Since we were due for a service we booked in with them and a couple of days later this was done. When it was ready by the end of the day the feedback was that there was nothing dramatically wrong with it. According to them, they had done a pressure test in addition to a complete and “thorough” check.

His invoice was as follows –
Service and safety check, squeal on reverse
Service check details are
Oil - $45.00
Oil filter - $11.25
Air filter - $28.07
EPA Waste $6.00
Efi Cleaner -$18.00
Washer - $2.00
Battery terminal protector - $1.00
Wiper Blades X 2 - $12.00
SPW X 1 - $1.00
Labour – 1.4 - $119.00
Total cost with GST - $ $267.65

Checked all Brakes, H/Brakes, Tyres, Tyre Pressures, Lights, Fluid Levels, Battery, Safety Belts and good check over.

REPORT
Front brakes @ 60% - Rear Brakes @ 40%
Loose power steering belt was making loud noise on reverse turning
Further works required:
Rack is leaking badly requires replacement
Spark plugs platinum, manifold needs to be removed to do these –
Valve stem seals needs replacement, which is causing the smoke problem.

The “needing to be done list” was also presented to us as in estimate form. They were -
S/F Spark plugs platinum - $490.
S/F Rack $910.
S/F Valve stem seals /Rocket cover gaskets $690.
Total cost – 2299.11
With a further note at the bottom saying
We recommend to change the spark plugs and Stem seals at the same time as the inlet manifold will also be off, this will also give you a saving of $170.00.

M1 suggested we go through his proforma invoice and in the near future get the recommendations addressed. He also told us that, at this point the things he recommended doing were not in any way going to impair the internals of the car if we took a little time to work out when they should be done. Presumably if we kept an eye on the power steering fluid. He assured us we were good to drive the car around in the meantime and we would have no immediate problems.
The following day we drove to a neighbouring country town which is about 40 kms away. During the drive it started to rain and after a while my husband noticed the “new” wiper attached to the wiper blade was beginning to slide off. Someone had forgotten clamp it down with its metal stop which sits on the top end. This rather surprised us and we wrapped it with a rubber band to keep the blade attached to the shaft while it did its job in wiping the rain off the windscreen. My husband who was doing the driving also thought he heard a strange sound and we both instantly looked at the temperature gauge and it had not budged from staying on the “middle“ area thereby show no rise in temperature. When we got there and parked the car there was a whole lot of smoke coming out of the bonnet and my husband quickly opened the bonnet steam was erupting out of the radiator at an alarming rate . We called for roadside assistance and they came and towed the car to the garage of the only other mechanic in the town (M2). I did not want to have the car dropped off at M1’s garage as I felt it was important to get an independent opinion and in any case, I also felt I could not trust M1 given his reassurance of the “car being good to go” and then it breaks down the next day.
We have had to change the radiator as we were told it had “blown” in 3 places and also in order for M2 to do some further testing they needed to have the radiator replaced. Further down the track after replacing the radiator M2 told us that the engine had blown and needed replacing. According to him this was as a result of there being no water in the radiator. But we had just had it serviced and tested! He had done a pressure check and found that the water was not circulating. At this point, even though the engine would start there was no pressure coming from the engine. This was because the engine had blown. He has gave us an estimate of $2200 all up to have the engine replaced and fitted.
With this information we went back to M1 to let him know what had happened to the car. He was completely un cooperative and would not accept any responsibility for what had happened and claimed that this could have happened due to the age of the car. He claimed he has no idea why this happened. I asked M1 what were the various reasons for a radiator to blow up the way it did. He responded with suggestions like “due to no water” and “age” . He asked us why we were there at his shop at all and what did we want from him. At this point, my husband brought up the up the business of the loose wiper, and interestingly enough suddenly his face fell and he expressed his annoyance over the fact someone in his garage could have made such a careless mistake. I suggested to him that in that given this obvious oversight could there perhaps been a possibility that either something else may have also been missed when putting things back together after the check or that perhaps the check was not done properly. Given our car did run so smoothly someone may not have felt it necessary to complete the “thorough going over” that they professed to have done on the car. This was brushed aside as being impossible . As far as he was concerned, this could never have happened even though he admitted he had not done the job himself.
So now, what do we do? I am very upset by what has happened. I still don’t know for sure what was the problem in the first place, after we handed in the car for a thorough check and service I got no feedback on any “major” issue needing urgent attention and no answers to any of the earlier unusual issues observed by my husband. M2 says he is unable to establish what could have been wrong in the first place to cause such damage that led to the engine failing. I suspect, as this is a small town it may be difficult for him to divulge any theories in case it stirs up any trouble.
Does anyone know what could be wrong with the car? If it is negligence on the part of the M1 and can anything be done? What do we do ? We have been greatly inconvenienced by this unfortunate situation as we are now pretty much house bound. Where we are living at the moment, there is no public transport for another 10kms and this of course means we cannot event get around to deal with the necessities of daily living let alone other pressing matters.,.

Thanks in advance

 

Ah, the wonderful world of auto mechanics, much, much, much harder to find then a good doctor, lawyer or accountant.

Most of these issues appear “normal” for Camry as the car gets up in miles and years.

Let’s start at the top.

If the white smoke is only at cold engine start up (regardless of air temp and humidity) this could very well be worn valve stem seals, a common issue. If the seals, the smoke will get worse over time and might sooner or later damage the catalytic converter. To replace the seals is VERY labor time consuming! Most mechanics remove the cylinder heads to change them, a few change the seals with engine together. Either way is time consuming = high labor costs.

The rear engine cylinder spark plugs are difficult to access. This may be why the mechanic reduced the price of changing these if you were going to replace the seals. To get to the seals means the mechanic would also now have access to the plugs.

All engines use some oil. How much total topping off of oil was needed in terms of quarts per 3000 US miles?

The steering rack seals can start to leak, typically from a seal located at each end of the rack housing. This seal keeps the fluid inside but allow a rod to move in and out. This push/pull rod rotates front wheel.

If you can remove a tire, you can check for leakage. The end of the rack body has a bellows from which the arm extends and connects to the steering knuckle (where the tire mounts). The purpose of the bellows is to keep debris from the seal at the end of the rack housing. If the seal is leaking, fluid would be leaking into the bellows and can check for this fluid inside the bellows.

The other typically location for power steering fluid leakage is the power steering pump drive shaft seal. The pump is under low on the engine making inspection difficult.

The squeal when turning could have been the belt. If the steering wheel is turned to the stop, the power steering pump works harder. If the belt is loose or needs replacing, this is when it tends to squeal as under a load.

A bad radiator cap is reasonably common. However one issue with Camry radiators is the upper section of the radiator (and lower) is plastic. Over time due to age, heat and internal pressure the upper section can start to crack (very common). The cracks start at as hairline, then get bigger, then a major leak. The result is coolant spraying out.

Perhaps the new cap allowed the pressure to build up to normal (instead of coolant leaking out and pressure being released) and any cracks become major leaks.

You stated the mechanic performed a pressure test. If the coolant system was leaking at the time, it would have appeared during the test.

If you stopped the engine upon seeing the steam and the temp gauge never got into the red the engine should not have been damaged. However if allowed to get too hot, the first thing typically to happen is a blown head gasket (common if overheated). If the engine is still run (now without) coolant, engine damage will occur such as bearings, piston rings.

How long did you run the engine after the steam appeared? Did the temp gauge get into the red?

How did the mechanic determine the engine now needs replacing? What checks did they perform?

If the engine only suffered a blown head gasket(s) then you may be in luck (relative speaking). The head gasket(s) can be replaced, head repaired if warped AND new valve guide seals installed. Remember, most mechanics replace the valve stem seals by removing the cylinder heads. The only addition parts needed for the blow head gasket would be to pressure test the head for cracks (can happen if overheated) and resurfacing the head which may be warped (common even if engine was not overheated).

As to what to do.

Find out if the engine has a blown head gasket(s) or is damaged inside the block such as bearings, piston rings, etc.

$2200 for an engine replacement is a good price. Find out the details of this replacement engine. Is this your engine now repaired, a rebuilt engine or used engine. If used keep in mind valve stem seals AND timing belt issues. Seals tend to harden if the engine sits for a long time without driving. The timing belt needs replacing every 90K US miles. It is easier to replace both with the engine out of the car.

Find out what is wrong with your engine. Blown head gaskets can be repaired at a reasonable cost. If internal damage, it is typically cheaper to obtain a replacement engine.

The steering rack repair can be delayed but the seal may start to leak more and may blow out. The car will not lose steering but revert to non-power assist. However if all the power steering fluid runs out the power steering pump will be damaged.

 

Hi Joey
Thanks for providing me with an understanding on the background to the various issue as pointed out by M1. It is helpful to have a clearer picture on the different problematic areas and the complexity of their positions in the engine of the car. When M1 drew our attention to the various issues that we needed to address, we did not doubt his diagnosis and in fact decided to get them attended to on the same night after going through the details. But out of this whole saga am I to understand that given we were told the car was absolutely fine to drive in the meantime and then on doing so we discover that the opposite is the case? Infact it causes so much detriment to our engine that it needs to be replaced? It also seemed strange that during that drive the first thing to happen is windscreen rubber begins to slide off as there is nothing attached on the top as with the wiper to stop it from sliding off? Therefore in the same vein I was wondering if something may not have been fitted back properly or forgotten? With my previous cars a fault with a radiator has always been spotted is there something different about this car that makes it hard to spot? And further to this if you notice I am a little puzzled by the costing on the labour costs showing that it merely took 1.4 hrs? sevice plus a thorough check to find out what the problematic issues are in relation to what we have noticed. The roadside assitant guy said it would not be too hard to spot a problem with the radiator in terms of whether the water was flowing through the engine as it should. He reckoned that it would take no more than a couple of hours to spot the problem. What I am trying to say is that should I just walk away and expect no acceptance of faulty service provided?

The car will start but there is no oil pressure and that is why the conclusion from M2 is that the engine needs to be replaced. We will be getting a used engine which would have done around anything from 150000-170000 Kms. Unfortunately it is next to impossibe to find a reconditioned one here in Melbourne these days - for this particular model. I spent all day today ringing around to check out what is out there. I did however find an engine that has done 70000kms and is available for $1500 and another $400 for labour all up.

I will re-check with the M2 on the other details you mentioned - the damage and replacement engine report back tomorrow.

Thanks for all your info on the machinations of the problematic areas. I am actually starting to acquire a keen interest in the mechanics of a car and this one especially :-) It is amazing how quickly one can grasp an understanding of the techinical terms in such a short time :-))