Please note, this post is regarding the brake rotors of a Toyota Venza, not a Toyota Camry. I could only find one forum dedicated to Venzas, and it was quite inactive.

Eight days ago…

• I picked up my newly turned OE brake rotors from the machine shop of a leading global automotive parts retailer,
• When I picked them up, the outboard surfaces looked smooth and uniform,
• I did not inspect the inboard surfaces, and
• I put them in the trunk of my 2007 Camry.

Today, after receiving my new Wagner OEX front and rear brake pads, I…

• Retrieved the rotors from my Camry,
• Noticed some rust, discoloration, and grooves in the rotors, and
• Lightly sanded one or both surfaces of some of the rotors using 400 grit sandpaper and a cushioned sanding block in a circular motion with particular attention to applying uniform pressure in all directions.

Below are pictures of my rotors…

However, if you are interested in a more complete story, I have included what I believe are the relevant events and facts from the history of the car and brakes.







Vehicle and Brake History

January 2013 – My parents, who lived in Fort Myers, Florida, purchased a new 2012 Venza from a local Toyota dealership.

May 2019 – At 27,000 miles, they had the front and rear OEM rotors, Bosch 43512-0T010 and Bosch 42431-0T010, respectively, turned and Bendix pads installed.

January 2021 – At 33,000 miles, my mother gave me the car and I relocated it to Virginia.

January 2021 to July 2022

• From the day I took possession of the car, the car always seemed to brake slowly, although the brakes were never soft, spongy, or improved with being pumped,
• When coming to a complete or near-complete stop, I frequently wished I or the person driving the car had started braking sooner,
• In those circumstances when braking sooner seemed prudent, braking harder did not necessarily cause the driver or occupants to lunge forward, and
• Unfortunately, I never slammed on the brakes nor was I present when a driver slammed on the brakes so I do not know how the brakes would have reacted.

July 2022

• At 50,000, while driving from New Jersey to Virginia, whenever the brakes were applied, it sounded like metal-to-metal grinding regardless of the speed at which the brakes were applied or how hard they were applied,
• When I returned to Virginia, I found…
  • The pads were in what I thought was a good shape with relatively smooth surfaces, no discoloration or chips, and each pad showing even wear with thicknesses ranging from 6-8 mm (pictures available),
  • All of the rotors were grooved, the front rotors were grooved worse than the rear, and one side of one front rotor had what I consider to be deep grooves (pictures not available), and
  • Both rear rotors had an area of “severe acne” covering one-third of both the inboard and outboard surfaces, with the outboard surface worse than the inboard surface and both surfaces of one rotor worse than the other (pictures not available), and
• A technician in the machine shop of a leading global automotive parts retailer said…
  • The “severe acne” was rust or was caused by rust, I do not remember which (IMO, the bumpy surfaces did not look like rust since they were more-or-less polished metal),
  • All of the rotors needed to be machined,
  • All of the rotors had sufficient thickness for machining,
  • Despite the condition of the pads, they need to be replaced, and
  • The cost for machining was $55 per pair.

 

Welcome to CF.

On rare occasions I have put new pads on FAR worse rotors then in your photos with no issues. As such assume your rotors should be OK. Rusted and grooved surfaces can be harder on a pad and effect its life.

Might research if this car (Venza) has poor braking as part of a design issue as some Toyota years and models did.

Suggest you inspect the brake calipers to make sure there is not a problem causing poor braking.

A caliper or caliper piston may be frozen. The calipers should be free to move sideways on its holder. The piston should move forward when the brakes are pressed.

DO NOT check for piston movement by pressing on the brake with the pads removed as the piston can pop out of the caliper. Have someone press on the brake while you watch the piston movement (pads installed!). In stalling the new pads the pistons will need to be retracted manually which will also indicate if it is frozen or can't move freely.

Bleed the brake system in case there is any air. The best would be to bleed to the point of flushing out all the old fluid.

You want firm brake pedal as in it becomes solid when pressed and doesn't keep moving lower and lower. Here look for possible problem master cylinder.

Make sure the power brake system is working. The car will stop with the power brake system not working but more pedal force is needed.

In conclusion. The rotors didn't clean up. Your choice is new rotors or use as is. I would use as is. Do check out the rest of the brake system for problems contributing to poor braking.

 

I posted on other forums and visited two local brake guys. Only one poster recommended not using the newly turned rotors. Everyone else agrees with you... Use as is.

Perhaps more importantly, since the rotors were first resurfaced in 2019, most people thought resurfacing the 2012 OE rotors a second time last month was a bad idea and everyone agreed I should have spent $50 more and simply purchased 4 new rotors.

As a matter of fact, a good number of people said I should never resurface rotors and recommended buying new modestly priced rotors instead.

Will do!

If I am concerned about the movement of the caliper pins or pistons, does it make sense to remove, clean, regrease, and reinstall them with the original dust boots, which seem to be in good condition, and o-rings, if they are still in good condition?

Will do!

Will do!

Thanks for your help and I look forward to any other comments or suggestions you have.

JWKinRVA


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If having advanced planning on a doing a brake job I will inspect the brakes first then order parts to do the job later. If the rotors are bad will order new ones. A competent machine or brake shop should be able to turn rotors but in my experience it is better to replace with new. Unless the car has sat and rotors are rusted or the pads wore down the metal and started grinding on the rotor, rotors should last a LONG time and through several pads changes. The price of new rotors is amortized over many years or use and the cost per year is low.

On occasion a car will be allowed to run the pads to metal and grind on the rotor (not my car!). The car is needed dally and I can't run around trying to find rotors or getting them turned, The choice is then to just replace the pads which someone locally has that day.

You got the rotors turned so use them.

As you know rotors can only turned so many times before the rotor overall thickness is smaller then specified.

Assume the old pads are worn and thus their thickness is less then a new pad. The caliper piston has thus moved outward to compensate for pad wear. The piston will need to be manually pushed back into the caliper body to allow clearance to fit the new, thicker pad. Suggest you just observe if the piston moves freely back into the caliper body and is not frozen. Unless frozen would NOT remove the piston as this can cause more issues then it solves.

As with rotors being resurfaced, calipers can be rebuilt. This involves honing the bore the piston fits into, new piston seals, boot and perhaps a new piston. Most people opt for new or rebuilt caliper these days. If a frozen piston or leaking piston seal get a replacement caliper.

Do remove the caliper section having the pads from their pin holder, inspect and grease the pin. The pin holder allows the section of the caliper with the pads to move in and out. Make sure the holder can move freely sideways. Grease the pad metal to metal contact surfaces as required. Youtube will have videos. Use a brake grease.

When pushing the piston back into the caliper, suggest hooking up a bleeder hose to the caliper bleeder like one would bleed the brakes. When pressing on the piston open the bleeder valve to allow fluid now under pressure to escape to the containment bottle. This process prevents the old fluid from being pushed back into the brake system which might cause issues. When loosening the bleeder valves, use a box wrench to increase the contact area of the wrench on the valve surfaces and prevent rounding of the valve hex (stripping the valve hex).

 

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Toyomoho,
Thanks for the reply.
I want to let you know that I appreciated and used the information you provided but I have been negligent in replying obviously.
Thanks, again.
gfr92y

FYI: I have a third vehicle allowing me to take my time on this brake job.
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I did not know that you could replace pads without resurfacing or replacing the rotors. That's good to know. Thanks!
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Yes, in the future I will replace the rotors and not resurface them.
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That was the consensus of the advice I received including two local brake techs who actually got to inspect the rotors.
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As a matter of fact, the right and left front caliper each had a bad boot and a frozen phenolic piston. (The 2012 Venza had phenolic pistons.)

I decided to rebuild the calipers, ordered new boots and seals from RockAuto and purchased some Genuine Toyota Lithium soap-based glycol grease (PN 08887-01206), damaged the top of a frozen piston trying to remove it with channel locks, and ordered a new piston from RockAuto.

After very lightly sanding the inside of the cylinder with 400-grit sandpaper and cleaning the piston with a scrubby pad, and replacing the seal that was lightly coated with the lithium grease, I expected the piston to slide into the cylinder, which it did not. I would appreciate it if you read my post Do phenolic pistons swell over time? in the Venza Gen1 (2009-2016) forum. I am interested in hearing your comments (and the comments of anyone who will contribute).

I am looking forward to inserting the new phenolic piston and comparing it to inserting the ten-year-old OE pistons.

I am contemplating doing some preventative maintenance in October by replacing the remaining five pistons with new ones ($14 per piston).
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I did not follow your advice. Based on the recommendation* of Toyota product engineer Tase Thompson in his technician job aid Toyota Complete Maintenance Care (TCMC) Brake Pads, I removed two of the four freely moving pistons that did not have any signs of corrosion or leaks.

* After removing the two good pistons, I happen to be rereading TCMC Brake Pads, found I misunderstood his recommendation, and should have followed your advice not to remove the good pistons.

Thanks, again, and I look forward to any additional comments you (and others) may have.

gfr92y
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The brake manufacturers recommend new rotors or turning them when changing pads which is understandable. If the rotors have groves this will transfer to the pad and shorten its life. The issue becomes just what is good enough.

If the boots are damaged debris can get into the piston/bore contact area and damage the phenolic. Damaged boots is a no, no here.

Lab test have shown the piston can swell over time. Some state lack of driving can accelerate the swelling.

Might use brake fluid as bore/piston lube. Brake fluid is used as the lube for all brake assy rebuilds such as a master cylinder.

.New pistons are a good idea.

Are the pistons stuck as you can’t push them into the bore. Does the piston start going into the bore and stop?

 

I'm a black-and-white kind of guy, which has meant whenever the pads needed to be replaced, I purchased new rotors or resurfaced the old ones. I will deal with this the next time I need to replace brake pads.

FYI... The car was driven very little in 2019 and 2020. I took possession in January 2021.

What do you think about the suggestion if a frozen phenolic piston cannot be reinserted into the cylinder, use a fine-grit bore hone to clean the cylinder and sand the piston on a lathe with 400 or 800 grit sandpaper for about 10 seconds so the piston will slide into the cylinder?

If that is a reasonable technique for phenolic pistons, when do you decide the piston is not going in and needs to have the cylinder honed and piston sanded?

OK

Yes, I cannot get them past the seal without using my piston compressor.

This is why I was asking about honing the cylinder and sanding the piston above.
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OLD BUSINESS

In addition to the items listed above, are there any other things that I should inspect or check to say that I took a complete look at the brake system?

Hmm... A troubleshooting chapter in a Venza repair manual would be helpful here.

A friend said a junction box might come into play.

In a properly operating caliper, should the pistons retract 100% when there is no brake pedal pressure?

The old pads were as thick as my new pads and the surface looked great.

Is there anything that can be done to put them back in service?

Thanks, again for all your help

JWKinRVA











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Maybe there isn't a problem with the piston..

Without the seal, would the piston go fully into the bore? If so the piston isn't the issue. Install the piston with the seal as you explained using brake fluid as lube.

Note that when you change pads you typically need to use a pry bar or C-clamp to force the now extended piston (due to pad wear) fully back into the bore. And this being done with the caliper bleed valve open to allow now excess fluid to escape thus your not forcing the fluid back through the brake system.

Sanding the piston appears common but suggest you research this first. The actual abrasive on the holder (paper, etc) is a grit. This grit can come off and embed into the plastic. Even with sanding metals there are certain MAJOR no, no's when sanding due to embedding of the abrasive.

SOP to check for leaks and condition of the flexible brake lines. Check brake fluid condition. If black consider flushing the system. If doing this read up issues caused by foot pumping the fluid out using the master cylinder. Here pushing the peddle beyond the normal distance can cause the master cylinder piston to move into an area of the bore that might have rust. One can put a block under the brake pedal or use a flushing unit.

Are you thinking about reusing the pads. The result will be faster pad wear. Make sure the used pad face is parallel the backing plate. Pads can wear at an angle which makes reusing them pragmatic.

 

Yes, the piston slid into the bore when there was no seal.

Lubricate the new seal with brake fluid... Got it!

I felt like the force needed to insert the piston into the bore with a new seal required more force than compressing pistons in the calipers of other cars. Then again I am relying on my memory which is not always a good thing to do.

I rebuilt the first caliper on my workbench and plan to do the same with the other three. I am planning to bleed and flush the brake lines after the fourth caliper is reinstalled.

Did not know this was a concern.

Thanks!

I am good with these.

No, my question was more curiosity than intention.

Thanks, again.

JWKinRVA

 

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Toyomoho,

Thanks for all of the help you have provided!

Here’s an update and a few questions...

Please comment on anything that captures your attention. I can use all the help I get.

Per your advice, I searched the internet looking for a history of brake problems with the 2012 Venza. There were as many people with brake issues on the 2012 Venza as there were with the other GEN 1 model years. As a matter of fact, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation, the 2012 model year had the lowest number of brake system complaints of all GEN 1 model years.

I want to make sure I understand you…

Let’s say one of the two pistons in a dual caliper requires an air compressor and channel locks to remove it from the bore and after cleaning the piston with a scrubby and very lightly resurfacing the bore with a bore hone if the piston slides back into the bore, do you recommend rebuilding the caliper?

… and if so, should I remove the good piston, clean it and the bore, install a new seal lubed with brake fluid, and reinstall the piston?

… and if you do not recommend rebuilding the caliper, do you recommend a new or remanufactured caliper?

Whose and which one?

I realize your advice will be for your model year Camry, but I can extrapolate your advice to some extent to my 2012 3.5L Venza Limited. Furthermore, your advice will be better than the advice I’ve gotten on the Venza forum, which is none.

FYI... While removing one of the frozen pistons, I scarred the top of the piston outside of where the boot meets the piston and after much deliberation, I decided to replace the scarred piston.

While cleaning the crud at the bottom of the upper cylinder in the front right caliper with a small wire cup, I discovered what I believe to be a crack in the caliper (see below) and after a long thread of posts in another forum where two forum members were trying to convince me it was not a crack, but a casting defect, I decided to replace the caliper. Unfortunately, the consensus was the caliper supplier will not accept my caliper for a core refund whether it is a crack or casting defect.







Click for a close-up of the crack


My plan was to replace both front calipers, however, two members of the Venza forum convinced me to:

• Replace the front right caliper now, and
• Replace the left one in the future if I don’t like the way the car brakes when I am done with the brake job. I am not 100% with their recommendation but I’m deferring to their better judgment.

What are your thoughts?

I am in the middle of deliberating over which caliper to buy to replace the "cracked" caliper.

I asked the following question above in a what-if question that may not have actually triggered the question, so here goes...

When replacing a caliper, do you recommend a new or remanufactured caliper?

Whose and which one?

As I mentioned above, I realize your advice will be for your model year Camry, but I can extrapolate your advice to some extent to a Venza. Furthermore, your advice will be better than the recommendations I’ve gotten on the Venza forum, which is none.

FYI… I have not yet removed the rear calibers. Obviously, I haven’t learned anything from not doing a full tear down and inspection of the brake system when I started this project.

Although I plan to follow your advice:

• I have not bled the brake system but plan to do so after I rebuild/install the calipers and install all of the brake pads,
• I have not yet flushed the brake system but I plan to do so when I bleed the system,
• I have not checked the master cylinder for any problems but I was planning to do so if the brakes weren’t firm when I’m done replacing the brake pads.

Should I just go ahead and check the master cylinder now and if so, how?

Does the brake system in Toyotas have a junction box?

Thanks, again, for all your help!

JWKinRVA