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BLOWN HEAD GASKET
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3
Update
Toyota, what a feeling. Here's my updated saga.
After Toyota wouldn't own up to their manufacturing/engineering defect, I had to move forward. It's important to keep in mind, this is NOT a dealer issue, this is a TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION issue.
First, after diagnosing the problem the dealer came back to me with a $6900.00 repair estimate to which I exclaimed, "PUT DOWN THE WRENCHES!". They were suggesting replacing the block, but from what I've learned this would not FIX the problem, only allow Toyota to put my car back together again. This was not acceptable to me for several reasons.
I called my independent mechanic who put me in touch with a local machine shop. The gentleman I spoke with started spouting specifications for the Time Serts immediately so I knew he was familiar with this issue. He indicated he had just completed a job on a Highlander and referred me to the mechanic who did the actual reassembly of the engine. His estimate was $375.00 for the "kit". Upon speaking with the mechanic he indicated the engine would need to be pulled from the chassis and his estimate was $2500.00. Add to these two estimates a tow bill. I was adamant that my car be FIXED and not just put back together again.
Back to the dealership I went, one to return the loaner and two, to advise them I would be towing my car to a shop that would FIX the problem, with an estimate of less than half. Upon hearing this, he asked if they could have a couple days to come up with an estimate. He also told me that the lead mechanic had just been to "school" at Toyota and this particular issue had been discussed. It seems that Toyota was putting together a "kit". To me, this validates that Toyota is aware of the issue but unwilling to take responsibility for the defect monetarily.
To sum things up, the dealer came back to me with an estimate of $3,396.94 to which I responded, "Toyota will be picking up the tab, correct?" This was NOT the case. I agreed to have the dealership fix my car. They had the vehicle for 15 days and I reluctantly paid the bill. They did indicate the engine was removed from the vehicle to facilitate the repair. So far, so good. I did get a one year warranty on the repair. I shudder to think what will take place should I have to return my vehicle to the dealer and enforce the warranty on this particular repair.
As for legal representation, I was referred to a law firm that has experience in class action law suits. They contacted me for additional information and a few days later I received a letter indicating they weren't able/willing to help me. No specific reason was given. It's only a matter of time before this issue escalates and includes many a sore Toyota consumer.
When I picked up my vehicle from the dealer I was VERY vocal and told the service writer that in a matter of time, enough Toyota consumers would be aware of this issue (either through personal experience or word of mouth from consumers) and that if we all banded together we could jam up their sales lot and not a car could be sold and not one service customer could possibly avoid becoming aware of this specific issue.
I will be filing a small claims action against TMC. It's only a matter of time before Toyota is FORCED to take action to rectify this situation that many of us are currently faced with or that looms in our future.
After Toyota wouldn't own up to their manufacturing/engineering defect, I had to move forward. It's important to keep in mind, this is NOT a dealer issue, this is a TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION issue.
First, after diagnosing the problem the dealer came back to me with a $6900.00 repair estimate to which I exclaimed, "PUT DOWN THE WRENCHES!". They were suggesting replacing the block, but from what I've learned this would not FIX the problem, only allow Toyota to put my car back together again. This was not acceptable to me for several reasons.
I called my independent mechanic who put me in touch with a local machine shop. The gentleman I spoke with started spouting specifications for the Time Serts immediately so I knew he was familiar with this issue. He indicated he had just completed a job on a Highlander and referred me to the mechanic who did the actual reassembly of the engine. His estimate was $375.00 for the "kit". Upon speaking with the mechanic he indicated the engine would need to be pulled from the chassis and his estimate was $2500.00. Add to these two estimates a tow bill. I was adamant that my car be FIXED and not just put back together again.
Back to the dealership I went, one to return the loaner and two, to advise them I would be towing my car to a shop that would FIX the problem, with an estimate of less than half. Upon hearing this, he asked if they could have a couple days to come up with an estimate. He also told me that the lead mechanic had just been to "school" at Toyota and this particular issue had been discussed. It seems that Toyota was putting together a "kit". To me, this validates that Toyota is aware of the issue but unwilling to take responsibility for the defect monetarily.
To sum things up, the dealer came back to me with an estimate of $3,396.94 to which I responded, "Toyota will be picking up the tab, correct?" This was NOT the case. I agreed to have the dealership fix my car. They had the vehicle for 15 days and I reluctantly paid the bill. They did indicate the engine was removed from the vehicle to facilitate the repair. So far, so good. I did get a one year warranty on the repair. I shudder to think what will take place should I have to return my vehicle to the dealer and enforce the warranty on this particular repair.
As for legal representation, I was referred to a law firm that has experience in class action law suits. They contacted me for additional information and a few days later I received a letter indicating they weren't able/willing to help me. No specific reason was given. It's only a matter of time before this issue escalates and includes many a sore Toyota consumer.
When I picked up my vehicle from the dealer I was VERY vocal and told the service writer that in a matter of time, enough Toyota consumers would be aware of this issue (either through personal experience or word of mouth from consumers) and that if we all banded together we could jam up their sales lot and not a car could be sold and not one service customer could possibly avoid becoming aware of this specific issue.
I will be filing a small claims action against TMC. It's only a matter of time before Toyota is FORCED to take action to rectify this situation that many of us are currently faced with or that looms in our future.
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 26
One more for the books
I have an entire thread on mine in here somewhere and toymoho (member) was a huge help to me.
I had a coolant leak, so I also removed the intake and found it to be leaking at the rear of the engine by #1 cylinder, I remove the cams and found #1 bolt loose, pulled out and had threads on it.
I tried to helicoil ALL of them myself and they didn't seem to work right, soft metal in block?
I called a machine shop friend of mine who told me he's seen this before in the cadillac northstar engine and in his opinion timeserts (and toymoho) are the way to go, I paid him to come to my house and do the repair on ALL the holes, we uesd timesert big-sert kit.
My car had 121K on it.
Shortly after the repair I now have a bad oil leak by the oil pressure passage to the head, car starts and run, adding oil once a month or so.
One day, I'll pull it back apart to see why. Hopefully the bolts are all tight and I can just get another gasket, maybe I pinched it?
My friend told me if the bigserts fail them my only other option would be a new block and its amazing toyota now has an "updated" one.
Josh
I have an entire thread on mine in here somewhere and toymoho (member) was a huge help to me.
I had a coolant leak, so I also removed the intake and found it to be leaking at the rear of the engine by #1 cylinder, I remove the cams and found #1 bolt loose, pulled out and had threads on it.
I tried to helicoil ALL of them myself and they didn't seem to work right, soft metal in block?
I called a machine shop friend of mine who told me he's seen this before in the cadillac northstar engine and in his opinion timeserts (and toymoho) are the way to go, I paid him to come to my house and do the repair on ALL the holes, we uesd timesert big-sert kit.
My car had 121K on it.
Shortly after the repair I now have a bad oil leak by the oil pressure passage to the head, car starts and run, adding oil once a month or so.
One day, I'll pull it back apart to see why. Hopefully the bolts are all tight and I can just get another gasket, maybe I pinched it?
My friend told me if the bigserts fail them my only other option would be a new block and its amazing toyota now has an "updated" one.
Josh
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1
this is how they blow
When your looking at the eng. from the front of car.The back of eng,intake side, in the middle, coolent will start leaking. driping down the block untill it hits the big pice of sponge inbetween the block and the plastic intake manfold, it takes awile than the sponge fills up, and starts to apear under car.The person who changes the oil,notices the leak,or not,anyway thats how the eng.starts over heating,thus the need to replace head gasket,in this case the block .
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1
Yet another
I had the dreaded head bolt problem on my 2004 RAV4. The head gasket popped without warning at 153K. My local Toyota dealer tried to play dumb about the problem, and their final "solution" was to replace the entire short block assembly, to the tune of $5500.00, $2800 of which was for the part itself. I said no.
Toyota Motor Corp refused to help me. "Sorry, out of warranty."
I had a used engine with 43k miles put in at a private shop and I will be ridding myself of this junker when I can.
I will never buy another new Toyota.
Toyota Motor Corp refused to help me. "Sorry, out of warranty."
I had a used engine with 43k miles put in at a private shop and I will be ridding myself of this junker when I can.
I will never buy another new Toyota.
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 7
stripped head bolt repair
Hello,
I'm new to the Camry forum. For what it's worth, I developed the NS300L insert kit to repair stripped head bolt threads in the Cadillac Northstar. My engine was repaired with timeserts(GM approved inserts) and they also stripped (Google HuhnSolutions to see our website). I have had several customers purchase the NS300L insert kit in the past year to repair the toyota 2.4L engine and did it with great success (some that have been repaired with failed timeserts). I had no idea that that the 2002-2006 2.4L had the same problem as the Northstar until just recently. I know very little about this engine other than it uses the M11x1.5 thread (the same as the Northstar) and several techs have used them to repair the 2.4L. I'm looking for more information about this engine, primarily whether there is enough meat in the engine block around the head bolt hole that the NS300L inserts can be installed safely with out hitting a water jacket. The NS300L insert has a coarse external thread (5/8-11) rather than a fine thread like the Timesert and it is much longer and bigger in diameter (you can see the difference on the History page of the website). They have three times the thread engagement with in the aluminum block than Timeserts. I have no problem with Timeserts, I think they are a great design, but they don't always seem to hold up under the high torque of a head bolt in an aluminum block since they still have a fine external thread.
Other information I am looking for is 1.) the length of the head bolt from under the washer. 2.) when the head bolt is dropped through the head, how much of the head bolt sticks out of the bottom of the head? 3.) what is the length of usable thread on the head bolt?
Any information on this engine would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.
I'm new to the Camry forum. For what it's worth, I developed the NS300L insert kit to repair stripped head bolt threads in the Cadillac Northstar. My engine was repaired with timeserts(GM approved inserts) and they also stripped (Google HuhnSolutions to see our website). I have had several customers purchase the NS300L insert kit in the past year to repair the toyota 2.4L engine and did it with great success (some that have been repaired with failed timeserts). I had no idea that that the 2002-2006 2.4L had the same problem as the Northstar until just recently. I know very little about this engine other than it uses the M11x1.5 thread (the same as the Northstar) and several techs have used them to repair the 2.4L. I'm looking for more information about this engine, primarily whether there is enough meat in the engine block around the head bolt hole that the NS300L inserts can be installed safely with out hitting a water jacket. The NS300L insert has a coarse external thread (5/8-11) rather than a fine thread like the Timesert and it is much longer and bigger in diameter (you can see the difference on the History page of the website). They have three times the thread engagement with in the aluminum block than Timeserts. I have no problem with Timeserts, I think they are a great design, but they don't always seem to hold up under the high torque of a head bolt in an aluminum block since they still have a fine external thread.
Other information I am looking for is 1.) the length of the head bolt from under the washer. 2.) when the head bolt is dropped through the head, how much of the head bolt sticks out of the bottom of the head? 3.) what is the length of usable thread on the head bolt?
Any information on this engine would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.
Junior Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 13
This was posted on ToyotaNation's forum by 'JohnGD':
Toyota issued a TSB 2 years ago about this failure: TSB 01507, NHTSA #10021542, Dated April 6 2007. I guess most people are out of the powertrain warranty by now.
Also AERA issued:
Coolant Loss on 2002-2006 Toyota 2.4L, 2AZFE engines
The following information concerns the loss of coolant on some 2002-2006 Toyota 2.4L, 2AZFE engines. The location of this condition has been noted at the rear of the engine where the cylinder head bolts to the cylinder block.
It has been reported that stripped head bolt threads have been found on some of these engines during tear down. When the two rear head bolts lose their clamping ability they allow coolant to seep out at the rear of the cylinder head.
To repair this condition, engine builders report using thread repair tooling used for various GM engines. Specifically, Cadillac 4.6L engines use the same threaded head bolts (Figure 1). The head bolts for this Toyota engine may be reused if they are not damaged and meet the following length specification.
Using a vernier caliper, measure the length of the head bolts from the seat to the end. Specified bolt length: 6.350˝ to 6.465˝ (161.3 mm to 164.2 mm). If the length is greater than the maximum, replace the bolt.
This information was provided by the Engine Builders Association (AERA).
Toyota issued a TSB 2 years ago about this failure: TSB 01507, NHTSA #10021542, Dated April 6 2007. I guess most people are out of the powertrain warranty by now.
Also AERA issued:
Coolant Loss on 2002-2006 Toyota 2.4L, 2AZFE engines
The following information concerns the loss of coolant on some 2002-2006 Toyota 2.4L, 2AZFE engines. The location of this condition has been noted at the rear of the engine where the cylinder head bolts to the cylinder block.
It has been reported that stripped head bolt threads have been found on some of these engines during tear down. When the two rear head bolts lose their clamping ability they allow coolant to seep out at the rear of the cylinder head.
To repair this condition, engine builders report using thread repair tooling used for various GM engines. Specifically, Cadillac 4.6L engines use the same threaded head bolts (Figure 1). The head bolts for this Toyota engine may be reused if they are not damaged and meet the following length specification.
Using a vernier caliper, measure the length of the head bolts from the seat to the end. Specified bolt length: 6.350˝ to 6.465˝ (161.3 mm to 164.2 mm). If the length is greater than the maximum, replace the bolt.
This information was provided by the Engine Builders Association (AERA).
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 7
Hello,
I'm new to the Camry forum. For what it's worth, I developed the NS300L insert kit to repair stripped head bolt threads in the Cadillac Northstar. My engine was repaired with timeserts(GM approved inserts) and they also stripped (Google HuhnSolutions to see our website). I have had several customers purchase the NS300L insert kit in the past year to repair the toyota 2.4L engine and did it with great success (some that have been repaired with failed timeserts). I had no idea that that the 2002-2006 2.4L had the same problem as the Northstar until just recently. I know very little about this engine other than it uses the M11x1.5 thread (the same as the Northstar) and several techs have used them to repair the 2.4L. I'm looking for more information about this engine, primarily whether there is enough meat in the engine block around the head bolt hole that the NS300L inserts can be installed safely with out hitting a water jacket. The NS300L insert has a coarse external thread (5/8-11) rather than a fine thread like the Timesert and it is much longer and bigger in diameter (you can see the difference on the History page of the website). They have three times the thread engagement with in the aluminum block than Timeserts. I have no problem with Timeserts, I think they are a great design, but they don't always seem to hold up under the high torque of a head bolt in an aluminum block since they still have a fine external thread.
Other information I am looking for is 1.) the length of the head bolt from under the washer. 2.) when the head bolt is dropped through the head, how much of the head bolt sticks out of the bottom of the head? 3.) what is the length of usable thread on the head bolt?
Any information on this engine would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.
I'm new to the Camry forum. For what it's worth, I developed the NS300L insert kit to repair stripped head bolt threads in the Cadillac Northstar. My engine was repaired with timeserts(GM approved inserts) and they also stripped (Google HuhnSolutions to see our website). I have had several customers purchase the NS300L insert kit in the past year to repair the toyota 2.4L engine and did it with great success (some that have been repaired with failed timeserts). I had no idea that that the 2002-2006 2.4L had the same problem as the Northstar until just recently. I know very little about this engine other than it uses the M11x1.5 thread (the same as the Northstar) and several techs have used them to repair the 2.4L. I'm looking for more information about this engine, primarily whether there is enough meat in the engine block around the head bolt hole that the NS300L inserts can be installed safely with out hitting a water jacket. The NS300L insert has a coarse external thread (5/8-11) rather than a fine thread like the Timesert and it is much longer and bigger in diameter (you can see the difference on the History page of the website). They have three times the thread engagement with in the aluminum block than Timeserts. I have no problem with Timeserts, I think they are a great design, but they don't always seem to hold up under the high torque of a head bolt in an aluminum block since they still have a fine external thread.
Other information I am looking for is 1.) the length of the head bolt from under the washer. 2.) when the head bolt is dropped through the head, how much of the head bolt sticks out of the bottom of the head? 3.) what is the length of usable thread on the head bolt?
Any information on this engine would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.
