Hey, guys. I've been looking around on this forum and I hope I've found the right place to post this.

I've owned a 1997 Camry for just over 2 years now and am looking for some general advice. This is my first car and I'm hoping it will last me at least another year to get my wife and I through the end of grad school (and any longer would be awesome).

Anyway, the main question I have is what people here think of the sound my car has started making when I first turn it on after it's been sitting in the cold for a while. It's been cold here for months now, so I'm not sure what's changed with the car... The most recent work has been an oil change (about a month ago) and before that was having the catalytic converter replaced (replaced on Christmas Eve for the second time... longer story... might describe more below).

I've uploaded two videos to YouTube that capture the sound I'm talking about. I wonder if it's associated with the power steering in some way. I had that replaced last summer (see description on the first video for a bit more about that).

Video 1: Cold start

Video 2: After a 15 minute drive

I wish I knew as much about cars as I know about computers--I'd be in much better shape...

Any ideas?


--
Longer history:

Bought the car in Jan of 2009, and overall has run well. During the summer of 2009 I noticed the front brake on the driver's side was rubbing while I drove--mechanics told me it was a stuck caliper. That went away when I got the brakes replaced and has been fine since.

In Nov of 2009 the check engine light came on. Took the car to PepBoys to have it diagnosed. Error code was P0240--Catalyic Converter below efficiency threshold. Had the work done to replace that with an aftermarket converter. PepBoys also replaced the inner tie rod on one of the tires.

Dec 2009 the power steering pump started going out. It would work with at when the engine was at higher RPMs, but do nothing at lower RPMs (parking, right turns, etc). Lived with that for a while (until about June or July of 2010--all the while making sure the power steering fluid was not low--never really had to add any fluid, so I don't think there was a leak like a mechanic at Big O had told me in December).

June or July 2010--power steering fixed at Big O Tires. (Didn't trust PepBoys after their somewhat unprofessional behavior and slow service the previous November).

Dec 2010--Car had been driving great until the check engine light came on again. I was worried it would be the catalytic converter again so I went back to where I had that done (PepBoys). They told me they'd check it out to see if that's what it was. Called me and said that was indeed the problem and they'd take care of it under warranty. Went in a day or two later and was told it was not going to be fixed since the part was out of warranty and the labor warranty was only 90 days. Offered to do the whole repair again at full price. I was upset and researched things myself to find out that aftermarket catalytic converters have a government mandated 25,000 mile warranty. Called the manufacturer and they said it should be fixed under warranty. Went back to PepBoys and got them to fix it under warranty for just the cost of labor.

(Sidenote: I reported PepBoys to the EPA for not following some aspects of the Clear Air Act which required them to provide me certain warranty information when they installed the first aftermarket converter. Was told by a PepBoys regional manager they'd send me a refund of the labor costs on the second repair, which never happened--I think he changed his mind when I told him I had already spoken to the EPA...)

Currently: Car's started making the noise as described above. Otherwise runs great. I'm worried that the new catalytic converter will also go out since everyone (manufacturer, multiple websites) tells me that they shouldn't just die--that it's usually a problem "upstream" with the engine running too rich or lean or something like that. I've talked to a few mechanics about that and they don't seem to understand that and say it should be fine. I'm not convinced, though. One mechanic offered a carbon cleaning service or something that's supposed to help clean out the catalytic converter--not sure why I'd want to do that on a new catalytic converter... seems like I want to prevent it from happening. I'm tired of people trying to take me for a ride (although I admit I might just be thinking that because I don't know enough and have started with a distrust of someone that's looking to service my vehicle).

Sorry for the huge post...

 

You know enough to call these unethical shops to task for trying to cheat you, many owners would have just paid. There are a number of good shops out there, but a lot of bad ones. Sadly your experiences would be considered not uncommon.

Try to find a smaller shop, perhaps one that only does Toyota (if this is even possible). A shop that will stand behind their work and want repeat business. They are out there.

These converter failures are not common. The original Toyota converter is warrantied for 8 years or 80K as mandated by EPA. They original should last 100K or more, the replacements longer then you are experiencing. As you checked up on perhaps something is wrong upstream to experience these many failures.

If the engine is operating too far out of parameters (the check engine light will go on).

What is the cars MPG, how much oil is burned? Typically the MPG will drop if a problem, too much burning oil will pollute the converter. Is your MPG within norms?

How many miles on these car?

My guess is the noise is something with the timing belt. Perhaps an idler bearing. When cold it makes noise, when it warms up it quiets down. When was the last time the car had its timing belt changed?

I suggest you obtain a section of rubber hose to use as stethoscope. With this you can narrow down the location of the noise.

Check the alternator behind the drive pulley. If this is the noise area the front alt bearing can be bad.

The power steering pump. Move the steering wheel and determine if the noise changes. The RPM will drop a little when the wheel is turn and PS engaged (and the noise) thus keep this in mind. Check your repair receipts and determine what was fixed when the PS system was worked on. If the PS pump it should be OK, but never know. The PS pump is in the lower firewall side area of the engine.

Also check the air conditioning compressor behind the pulley. This looks like a pump, it pumps freon.

Check for noise coming from under the large plastic cover behind the spinning belt. Under this cover is the timing belt. It drives the camshafts and water pump. Try to determine if the noise is coming from under the cover. If the noise is from under the cover then it could be an idler bearing or water pump. Replacing either of these requires removing the cover which requires taken a few parts off. Not a cheap job.

All of the components are on the front of the engine where the spinning belt is.

The engine is a 1MZ-FE, an internet search should result in hits having photos or drawings of the timing belt system to aid you in where the parts are and where to listen.

Your experiences are one reason many owners take on car repairs. They may not like it but they don't like getting ripped off.

Perhaps your school offers some kind of basic auto repair or auto info for owners classes. After you graduating, start making money, etc you sooner or later will buy another car, perhaps a new one. You will still be faced with the same unethical repair shops. Even the dealer where you purchased that new car can rip you off. It doesn't get any better with a new car, just fewer breakdowns.

Post back with your findings.

 

Thanks for the detailed reply. I'll give a smaller shop a try. I've seen a few places around here that focus on Japanese cars and many others that are just smaller shops.

The car has just over 163,000 miles on it. I registered on the Toyota Owners website and was able to see what services had been done at any Toyota dealership. It's only been in a dealership once from what I could tell, but that was when the timing belt was changed by the previous owner. That was November 2006 and the car had 114,535 miles on it.

Gas mileage is about what you'd expect for the V6, I think. I average around 23mpg with some freeway, but mostly city driving. Before the first (OEM, I think) catalytic converter died I was getting about 30mpg when I was pretty much exclusively doing freeway driving (and think I can still see that now).

I'm leaning towards something with the power steering right now since the noise got louder when I moved the steering wheel a bit (you can see that at the end of the first video at about 1:28 or so when the camera's out the window I'm moving the steering wheel a bit as you see right when I pull the camera back in).

After the videos yesterday, the sound seems more prevalent now even after the car's warmed up (not constant, but seems to be whenever I'm making turns). My wife told me it was sounding bad when I made a U-turn right in front of her when I picked her up from work...

When the power steering was done before, Big O replaced the power steering pump. I found the service invoice for that and looks like it is still under warranty, so I'll probably stop off at Big O today and see what they think. I'll definitely do my own research before they do anything else if they say it's something else, though.

 

So here's the damage as reported by Big O:

The power steering pump is bad again, but the reason it went bad is because the rack and pinion are bad and need to be replaced. I was told there was oil all over the place (which was explained to be the power steering oil, or fluid). The salesman took me out to show me the problem and I did see that there was oil on the frame of the car up by the parts he was pointing out to me.

The interesting thing is that they took me out there over a year ago (Dec 2009) to point out the same sort of thing, but said the pump was broken. I didn't have money just then to fix it (was about to get married) and was told that if I didn't fix it the rack and pinion could go bad, but advised that my best bet if I didn't fix it was to make sure the power steering fluid was always topped off. I put a little bit of fluid in once and checked regularly, but never had to top it off again.

The mechanic told my salesman today that he had recommended that the rack and pinion be replaced back in September 2010 when we had the power steering pump replaced, but the salesman then (who no longer works there) didn't tell me that.

I do have some oil on the driveway right where I park, but it's not something that is particularly overwhelming. So I'm a little skeptical, but understand that it must just be what they've said....

Estimate is:

Rack and pinion: 799.99
Power steering pressure hose: 359.95
Power steering return hose: 159.95
Wheel alignment: 69.95

Shop supplies: 34

Total: 1423.84 + tax

So at this point I'll possibly get another opinion (and hear what anyone here has to say) and decide whether it's worth it to keep the car for a while longer (hoping nothing else breaks) or to just sell the car and get something else.

 

Congrats on your soon to be marriage!

This car is certainly having its share of problems.

It is not uncommon for the rack to fail, typically this is the seals at the end of the rack housing starting to leak fluid. There is one seal at the end of each side of the rack housing.

The fluid is the same type as used the automatic transmission. It is thin and red in color.

If you look under the car, each side of the rack housing has rod coming out from the rack that attaches to the steering knuckle. The rack moves one way or the other in response to the pinion gear being turned by the steering wheel.

When the rack moves, it moves the rods which being connected to the steering knuckle rotate the knuckle and the tires which are attached.

Where the rod comes out the rack housing these is a rubber boot (bellows). The boot is attached at one end to the housing and at the other to the rod. It expands and contracts as the rod goes in and out of the housing. The purpose of boot is protect the rack housing seal (and a joint on the rod) from dirt, debris, etc.

If the seal at the end of the rack housing is leaking, the fluid will accumulate behind the bellows and sooner or later force its way out. Thus a seal can be leaking but the bellows hide this fact for a time.

Suggest you look at the boot area for red fluid coming out at the boot ends. If fluid is coming out of the the seal is leaking. If no fluid your leak is someplace else.

Sometimes the rack and pinion fail in such a way it makes a grinding noise when the steering will is turned. This noise would be from the rack and pinion area not PS pump.

Sometimes when turning the steering wheel a rough spot is encountered. The steering is smooth then rough spot caused by a damaged rack.

The rack is just a long bar with teeth, the pinion is a gear. The gear engages the teeth. Rotate the gear, the rack will move.

Typically the PS pump fails not the rack. Suppose it is possible the last failed pump contaminated the fluid with some kind of metal debris which in turn damaged the rack over time.

Most often though when the PS pump fails (not uncommon), the owner just replaces the pump and all is well again. They may also try to get out as much of the contaminated fluid as possible. Its not typically for the owner or shop to change the rack in response to a bad PS pump.

In looking at the estimate wonder why the hoses are being replaced. If contaminated they can be flushed with solvent saving $500, I would be doing this myself unless the hoses were somehow damaged.

A wheel alignment would be a good idea.

The actually cost of replacing the rack seems OK.

I suggest you take the car to another shop as stated. Play dumb, just state the engine is making noise maybe over in that direction. Hear what the mechanic says and if just needs pump. You then might state, "I am curious as this is the second pump to fail" and inquiry if something can be causing two pump failures in row.

My issue is if you go in stating the other shop states the car needs this and that, you may be told that yes, this and that does need replacing even if they don't. Sorry I am very cautious but live and learn.

Unless the steering is hard, has a rough spot its not going to break. The car should be able to operate fine without the PS pump working although the steering of course will hard. Had this happen years ago with a leaking PS hose. I cut the drive belt to the pump to stop it from turning then drove the car without PS until I could fix it.

I could be wrong but given all your other encounters now wondering if since the PS pump is under warranty the shop is now trying to make its money on changing the rack.

You can try to inspect the trans fluid, perhaps suck out the fluid from the PS tank and check for signs of metal or metal grime.

Its possible the rack is bad but get a second unbiased opinion from someone having no profit motive.